Tank Balance

[CarnivalNights]

Tanks should get like a massive nerf to their DPS and a massive boost to their enmity gains.

This would get rid of 90% of the false tanks who only tank so they can DPS. Only the true metalheads will remain when the scrubs who bandwagoned tank realize they have to actually tank.

Making fending an almost necessity to be equipped. The fact that tanks can get away with wearing slaying accessories shows poor game design that's obviously heavily favoring a more casual player. If you disagree, then you know nothing about game design. That's a simple 100% fact.

[TouchandFeel]

If you disagree, then you know nothing about game design. That's a simple 100% fact.

I'm curious to know what your game design credentials are since you make such a blanket statement.

[SpookyGhost]

If you disagree, then you know nothing about game design. That's a simple 100% fact.

All this would do is make tanking 10x easier than it is now. At least with DPS maximization you're putting yourself at risk if you don't play correctly. Choosing between STR and VIT before being maximum ilvl is poor game design, but it has nothing to do with the tanks themselves and all to do with the encounters.

The decision itself also isn't a casual route - there is a choice being made by the player that actually gives them a custom build for each encounter, and tanks are the only one who can do this. If STR accessories weren't an option and fights were tuned harder, you'd literally just take whatever thing had VIT on it until the cows come home. That's extremely linear and casual, which is what every other job is going for (I'm a MNK I take STR accessories, I'm a SMN I take INT accessories, etc.). Tanks are the lone exception due to the design of the encounters not being tuned high enough to warrant full VIT accessories at a low ilvl.

Also, RE: WAR MT vs PLD/DRK OT for DPS, I've always assumed WAR MT was better despite the outrageous damage of 3x FC. With a NIN, you can actually still 3x FC and the RI/Vengeance you use will actually do something (unless you pre-Infuriate > etc. then RIP Vengeance for the next minute and a half). There's also the advantage of WAR's highest enmity combo also being it's highest damaging combo, while PLD/DRK's highest enmity combo is their lowest damaging combo. The major crux of WAR MT in Deliverance is that you no longer have IB (as pointed out) and PLD/DRK still have their entire CD kit - but IB is really only relevant when a tank buster is coming. In which case you can plan ahead of time, enter Defiance ~20s before it happens w/ 5 Wrath, Unchained, build 5 Wrath, IB, then drop Defiance.

[Cidolfas86]

Stuff here.

Honestly I like the way tank accessories are playing out. Its the only set of classes in the game with some variation/itemization on their equipment. Everyone else is so linear, but with tanks at least I get to pick and choose a little if nothing else.

But yeah I agree that if you take DPS away from tanks it'll make tanking that much more boring and drive people away, since tanking in this game isn't all that hard to begin with. There's a reason why most modern MMOs have moved away from meat wall turtle tanks.

[Whiston]

All this would do is make tanking 10x easier than it is now. At least with DPS maximization you're putting yourself at risk if you don't play correctly.

And, lo and behold, it seems the playerbase has embraced this playstyle also.
It makes it interesting, engaging and fun.

For those around for the 2.0-2.2 ish era, this meta didn't really exist.
This was also a period that significantly lacked tanks in the playerbase, to the point that SE implemented multiple incentives to try and get more people playing the classes.

Now, I feel, the jobs are pretty well balanced in the playerbase and we don't have the severe deficiencies we used to see.
Anyone who thinks we should go back to that is doing the entire community an injustice.

[SpookyGhost]

For those around for the 2.0-2.2 ish era, this meta didn't really exist.

It's actually existed since 2.0, but was only pursued by the higher echelon of tanks. Gryphonskin accessories were pretty much the best accessories we ever got - i70, STR + VIT + DEX, easily capped with plenty of room to meld other secondaries. These were ideal for everything up to T5 MT (when you had more gear, they were ideal for that as well).

STR was a huge benefit for 2.0 WAR, as our only form of "mitigation" was our self heal in IB, which scaled from STR. It also boosted Bloodbath + Berserk + IR + Unchained healing (super good in T4), and though still pitiful it boosted Storm's Path healing as well.

2.2/SCoB was the biggest boon for STR tanking and where melded accessories saw their biggest use. This followed into 2.4 with FCoB and eventually saw it's way into every tank's mind in 3.0 due to the popularity of Xeno.

It's sort of a popular misconception that STR tanking just showed up randomly in FCoB and in 3.0, it's been here the whole time and it's always been as useful as it is now. I personally don't have a problem with STR tanking, but I think if we went the VIT only route we'd need something akin to WoW or Tera's tanking model - active mitigation. Auto attacks currently hit for 3k~3.5k (5.k-ish crit) in Savage, which is essentially nothing. If we had abilities or even a stat (hello Parry wherefore art thou) that mitigated larger incoming damage to the reasonable level it's at now, then we'd have a reason to stack VIT. Obviously Parry doesn't work because it's RNG (even at a high %, larger spikes of damage randomly = nonono) but if it were shifted to something like +Defense then we'd have a worthwhile tank stat.

Anyway, it's really weird that SE hasn't done anything about this tbh. They know it exists but they really just can't seem to be bothered to fix it. Donjo's post implies it's an accident that the STR focus exists, but it seems like they're okay with it sticking around. I dunno, I feel like they forgot what tanks actually are meant to do and instead made DPS that occasionally press a CD to mitigate big damage.

[Alahra]

Anyway, it's really weird that SE hasn't done anything about this tbh. They know it exists but they really just can't seem to be bothered to fix it. Donjo's post implies it's an accident that the STR focus exists, but it seems like they're okay with it sticking around. I dunno, I feel like they forgot what tanks actually are meant to do and instead made DPS that occasionally press a CD to mitigate big damage.

They probably don't *like* it but have decided the development time needed to address it wouldn't be worth the gain, as I imagine they'd actually want to keep tank potential for damage roughly the same (given their stance on healer DPS in progression, they probably want people to be able to push tank DPS just the same as healers can). That would mean not only a retooling of tank stats, but more than likely adjustments to tank stances and most of their abilities, too.

[Ashkendor]

Tanks should get like a massive nerf to their DPS and a massive boost to their enmity gains.

This would get rid of 90% of the false tanks who only tank so they can DPS. Only the true metalheads will remain when the scrubs who bandwagoned tank realize they have to actually tank.

What I'm hearing is: hey, let's take the one role that has real build options and dumb it down.

Making fending an almost necessity to be equipped. The fact that tanks can get away with wearing slaying accessories shows poor game design that's obviously heavily favoring a more casual player.

No, there's definitely a skill gap there. Healing bad tanks in Slaying gear is a nightmare. If I'm gonna have to suffer through healing a bad tank, I'd rather have them in Fending gear. If the tank is good, it's academic whether they're in Fending or Slaying gear because a good tank knows how to mitigate damage properly. This of course doesn't necessarily apply to endgame content, which (depending on gear levels) may have a higher HP threshold than Slaying gear provides (I go 3 Slaying 2 Fending in Savage right now).

If you disagree, then you know nothing about game design. That's a simple 100% fact.

I'm pretty sure there's a logical fallacy in here somewhere.

[Drakkaelus]

Tanks should get like a massive nerf to their DPS and a massive boost to their enmity gains.

This would get rid of 90% of the false tanks who only tank so they can DPS. Only the true metalheads will remain when the scrubs who bandwagoned tank realize they have to actually tank.

Making fending an almost necessity to be equipped. The fact that tanks can get away with wearing slaying accessories shows poor game design that's obviously heavily favoring a more casual player. If you disagree, then you know nothing about game design. That's a simple 100% fact.

So once I've established aggro, I can get up and walk away from the keyboard? Yeah, let's make the entire game as, "exciting" as PLD AoE. Sounds like a blast.

I guess you never do anything but spam your enmity combo/flash, right? No offensive cooldowns or combos at all? Somehow I doubt that.

The idea that tanking has to be as dry as possible is what chases so many people away from it in the first place.