Why not just make everyone a DPS?

[RapBreon]

You make both mechanics at the same time.

Let's imagine a big boss who create parts of him. Each time one part is killed, he loses a 10% of its life, and you need one tank for the main body and one for the part.
You could have any tank on the main body focused on surviving high damaging moves (So, any tank with high VIT, but "mostly" PLD or DRK, since damage is less relevant), and one tank on the spare part focused on dishing out damage (So, any tank with high STR but mostly WAR since surviving is less relevant)

You could even alter the main target to switch periodically to either physical or magical busters, thus each tank will have its strong and weak points in the long run, and the spare part to take reduced damage from physical or magical so that mixing DPSes will be more efficient.
For an additionnal mechanic, you could make the body to stay in one form (physical or magical) when it hits 50% HP, thus managing your timing so that the final from better suits the main tank you have.

You can do this kind of stuff. And MMOs do. But it's a gimmick, you can't fill an entire tier with it. One boss a tier does not make. It's a good idea though, don't get me wrong.

And in the current FF:HW climate it wouldn't work as is. If the current level of DPS checks were transplanted to your hypothetical, you'd still want a tank who does more damage. Build aggro on head, switch to limbs to help DPS.

Your problem is with the tightness of the checks. As I have said, it is binary. Progression through difficult bosses (mathematically speaking) close to release has always been about squeezing DPS to the maximum (single heal Garrosh world first anyone? What a god).

[Yorumi]

for Apocatastasis on A1 simple because your tanks can't survive the tank buster that now does double the damage it does now.

I think another part of the problem is the total reliance on tank busters and scripted fights. When pretty much all the damage in any fight except the known tank busters is considered fluff damage that regen takes care of I think there's something pretty wrong with the fight design. If the damage was more consistent you'd have a more organic fight.

The biggest problem honestly is that the content is just so lazily designed. Dps is the only thing checked, there's no real mitigation stat in the game, fights are 100% scripted so it's just a game simon says, mitigation is 90% passive etc.

[Reynhart]

Build aggro on head, switch to limbs to help DPS.

Not if you need to keep the part and head away from each other.

That's just an idea I had after 5 minutes, I'm pretty sure a full team of experienced developers can create a lot of bosses with these kind of mechanics

You could also make time kills where the main target has to die around the same time as the last lesser target of a long train. So, killing the main target the fastest is irrelevant.

[RapBreon]

I think another part of the problem is the total reliance on tank busters and scripted fights. When pretty much all the damage in any fight except the known tank busters is considered fluff damage that regen takes care of I think there's something pretty wrong with the fight design. If the damage was more consistent you'd have a more organic fight.

The biggest problem honestly is that the content is just so lazily designed. Dps is the only thing checked, there's no real mitigation stat in the game, fights are 100% scripted so it's just a game simon says, mitigation is 90% passive etc.

Yeah but that's MMO raiding in general FF:ARR especially. Its entire philosophy is 'learn the dance' (Titan anyone). It's the very core of this game. If you take issue with that, then I'm not sure what to say 0.o.

Healers are certainly being checked though. The oppressors check healers...oh yes do they check the healers. And they kind of check the tanks? Albeit it's can you press buttons when you see a cast bar! But it's there...but I'll concede it's a shitty one.

Not if you need to keep the part and head away from each other.

That's just an idea I had after 5 minutes, I'm pretty sure a full team of experienced developers can create a lot of bosses with these kind of mechanics

You could also make time kills where the main target has to die around the same time as the last lesser target of a long train. So, killing the main target the fastest is irrelevant.

Ok so then what is the MT doing? Sitting there casting Clemency and Riot blade combo? Throw tomahawks? If the DPS on the head matters, then he'll be a WAR. If it doesn't, then he's a weird support character for a fight (AKA only a PLD could do that fight optimally). Like I said, it'd work for a single fight and it'd be cool. But a whole tier, eh, not convinced.

[Yorumi]

Yeah but that's MMO raiding in general FF:ARR especially. Its entire philosophy is 'learn the dance' (Titan anyone). It's the very core of this game. If you take issue with that, then I'm not sure what to say 0.o.

I think the problem is the degree to which ARR and really HW takes the scripting and lazy design. I don't expect pure rng but it's taken to such a ridiculous extreme you're pretty much a robot in these fights. Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

[Reynhart]

If the DPS on the head matters, then he'll be a WAR.

Loot at the second boss from Copperbell normal. DPS doesn't matter but you still need someone to keep aggro on it.
It's also like Cerberus. Only the DPS in belly really matters, anyone can tank the boss itself.
If the boss I think of loses 10% of HP each time a part is killed, so 10 parts to end the fight, and that no tank can bring down this number to 9 parts, then DPSing the head doesn't matter.

If it doesn't, then he's a weird support character for a fight (AKA only a PLD could do that fight optimally).

You'd still need someone to keep aggro and take the hits, and each tank can do it approximately the same. If you have a WAR or a PLD, you'll try to lock the boss in "physical" form, if you have a DRK, you'll lock to "magical" form.

Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

Like I said in another topic, it could be interesting to have a boss with a cooldown on each of its attack, but that can use randomly any attack that is not on cooldown.

[RapBreon]

I think the problem is the degree to which ARR and really HW takes the scripting and lazy design. I don't expect pure rng but it's taken to such a ridiculous extreme you're pretty much a robot in these fights. Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

Same can be applied to almost any other PvE (and even PvP...if you're good enough :P) scenario. You're essentially repeating the great PvE vs. PvP debate.

For a large amount of people, doing their rotation without error (if they even know how to do that to begin with), whilst performing whichever mechanic the boss is throwing at you can be a challenge. Some bosses are far more complex to manage than others in this respect. Yes, it comes at you the same way every-time (well not every-time, there is some variability), but you certainly get better. After an odd 50-70 attempts at that boss I was still learning news way to optimize and eke out the tiniest bit more DPS by the end. If it were so simple I would see more people perform better, even after the umpteenth wipe. Don't forget 7 other people can't make a mistake either!

It's definitely a different skill-set to PvP though, which you seem the value those traits more (reactions, clutch plays, adaption, etc.).

Loot at the second boss from Copperbell normal. DPS doesn't matter but you still need someone to keep aggro on it.

Going on record to say that is my actual least favorite fight in the game. I'd rather eat rusty nails than do that boring piece of donkey's ass.

But the point is, presume that's a raid. You don't need to DPS boss beyond aggro. So it would automatically favour a PLD because they can do something other than DPS (a DRK and WAR literally can not doing anything but use their attack skills). Which is the inverse of the current problem. This was my point.

[Yorumi]

Same can be applied to almost any other PvE (and even PvP...if you're good enough :P) scenario. You're essentially repeating the great PvE vs. PvP debate.

Not really. PvP is the opposite end of the spectrum but there's a lot inbetween. For example classes can be done with more a priority system than a fixed rotation. A priority system isn't mind blowing by any means but makes things feel just a little less scripted. Bosses can just add little bits of rng to the fight, not to the degree you're winning or losing fights on rng, but enough that it makes it feel like maybe the boss is thinking a little bit about what it's doing.

[Ercapote]

stuff .

emmm....wut? I never understood players like you, no offence but what script? the so called "ROTATIONS" are mathematical combinations made for us the player, Yes is the probably maximum dps combination to maximize your abilities, but there's not a single part on the entire game where it says in which order you need to use your abilities nor you are obligated to follow that rotation, hell you can make your own rotation if you want to go ahead and do some math. The same goes for the fight, yes mechanics are scripted but the way to approach those mechanics are up to us there's no reason why you should mimic other groups mechanics. What people fail to understand is that to make a boss difficult and challenging for 8 man there's need to be something called synchronization, there's nothing harder than HUMAN ERROR and for 8 people to perfectly be sync there needs to be an script that makes then all not only to perfectly play his class but also learn how to use the class on different situation while synchronize with each other to handle the so called script mechanic, there's nothing hard about random abilities mix up together because anyone can just do whatever they want there's no need to be synchronize just know what we will do when the abilities pop up, there's no fun in that. take example of SHIVA (easiest primal of all)

[RapBreon]

Not really. PvP is the opposite end of the spectrum but there's a lot inbetween. For example classes can be done with more a priority system than a fixed rotation. A priority system isn't mind blowing by any means but makes things feel just a little less scripted. Bosses can just add little bits of rng to the fight, not to the degree you're winning or losing fights on rng, but enough that it makes it feel like maybe the boss is thinking a little bit about what it's doing.

Priority systems become just as drab as rotations in the same amount of time - at least to me. Most of WoW's classes work on a priority system rather than strict rotations...and they have literally the most boring classes in the world to play right now. Think Ret Pally *shiver*. I thought BRDs and MCHs have priority systems anyway? So there are options.

Bosses do randomly target, which you do need to react too (within set parameters). Imagine if the Oppressors cast their abilities in random orders 0.o. So many wipes to RnGesus. So many free-kills because he liked the look of his Photon Spaser this time. That would be insanely frustrating. This game is all about pattern recognition, more so than even other MMOs, it's designed that way from the ground up. So messing with the carefully crafted pattern in this game would be pure unmitigated bedlam.

Most of what I'm gathering here is that you just don't like the game's philosophy/design...which is dandy, you're just not overly thrilled by the concepts, but calling it 'bad design' is a bit unfair. Because I think it's pretty good for what it's trying to be.