Why not just make everyone a DPS?

[Reynhart]

If the DPS on the head matters, then he'll be a WAR.

Loot at the second boss from Copperbell normal. DPS doesn't matter but you still need someone to keep aggro on it.
It's also like Cerberus. Only the DPS in belly really matters, anyone can tank the boss itself.
If the boss I think of loses 10% of HP each time a part is killed, so 10 parts to end the fight, and that no tank can bring down this number to 9 parts, then DPSing the head doesn't matter.

If it doesn't, then he's a weird support character for a fight (AKA only a PLD could do that fight optimally).

You'd still need someone to keep aggro and take the hits, and each tank can do it approximately the same. If you have a WAR or a PLD, you'll try to lock the boss in "physical" form, if you have a DRK, you'll lock to "magical" form.

Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

Like I said in another topic, it could be interesting to have a boss with a cooldown on each of its attack, but that can use randomly any attack that is not on cooldown.

[RapBreon]

I think the problem is the degree to which ARR and really HW takes the scripting and lazy design. I don't expect pure rng but it's taken to such a ridiculous extreme you're pretty much a robot in these fights. Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

Same can be applied to almost any other PvE (and even PvP...if you're good enough :P) scenario. You're essentially repeating the great PvE vs. PvP debate.

For a large amount of people, doing their rotation without error (if they even know how to do that to begin with), whilst performing whichever mechanic the boss is throwing at you can be a challenge. Some bosses are far more complex to manage than others in this respect. Yes, it comes at you the same way every-time (well not every-time, there is some variability), but you certainly get better. After an odd 50-70 attempts at that boss I was still learning news way to optimize and eke out the tiniest bit more DPS by the end. If it were so simple I would see more people perform better, even after the umpteenth wipe. Don't forget 7 other people can't make a mistake either!

It's definitely a different skill-set to PvP though, which you seem the value those traits more (reactions, clutch plays, adaption, etc.).

Loot at the second boss from Copperbell normal. DPS doesn't matter but you still need someone to keep aggro on it.

Going on record to say that is my actual least favorite fight in the game. I'd rather eat rusty nails than do that boring piece of donkey's ass.

But the point is, presume that's a raid. You don't need to DPS boss beyond aggro. So it would automatically favour a PLD because they can do something other than DPS (a DRK and WAR literally can not doing anything but use their attack skills). Which is the inverse of the current problem. This was my point.

[Yorumi]

Same can be applied to almost any other PvE (and even PvP...if you're good enough :P) scenario. You're essentially repeating the great PvE vs. PvP debate.

Not really. PvP is the opposite end of the spectrum but there's a lot inbetween. For example classes can be done with more a priority system than a fixed rotation. A priority system isn't mind blowing by any means but makes things feel just a little less scripted. Bosses can just add little bits of rng to the fight, not to the degree you're winning or losing fights on rng, but enough that it makes it feel like maybe the boss is thinking a little bit about what it's doing.

[RapBreon]

Not really. PvP is the opposite end of the spectrum but there's a lot inbetween. For example classes can be done with more a priority system than a fixed rotation. A priority system isn't mind blowing by any means but makes things feel just a little less scripted. Bosses can just add little bits of rng to the fight, not to the degree you're winning or losing fights on rng, but enough that it makes it feel like maybe the boss is thinking a little bit about what it's doing.

Priority systems become just as drab as rotations in the same amount of time - at least to me. Most of WoW's classes work on a priority system rather than strict rotations...and they have literally the most boring classes in the world to play right now. Think Ret Pally *shiver*. I thought BRDs and MCHs have priority systems anyway? So there are options.

Bosses do randomly target, which you do need to react too (within set parameters). Imagine if the Oppressors cast their abilities in random orders 0.o. So many wipes to RnGesus. So many free-kills because he liked the look of his Photon Spaser this time. That would be insanely frustrating. This game is all about pattern recognition, more so than even other MMOs, it's designed that way from the ground up. So messing with the carefully crafted pattern in this game would be pure unmitigated bedlam.

Most of what I'm gathering here is that you just don't like the game's philosophy/design...which is dandy, you're just not overly thrilled by the concepts, but calling it 'bad design' is a bit unfair. Because I think it's pretty good for what it's trying to be.

[Ercapote]

good reasoning imo.

couldn't agree more.

[Yorumi]

Priority systems become just as drab as rotations in the same amount of time - at least to me. Most of WoW's classes work on a priority system rather than strict rotations...and they have literally the most boring classes in the world to play right now. Think Ret Pally *shiver*. I thought BRDs and MCHs have priority systems anyway? So there are options.

Perhaps they just failed to make fun classes I don't have experience with them. As I said priority isn't mind blowing by any means, but you can't tell me with proper design it's more fun to repeat 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3... than having to actually consider what your next action is going to be. Mch and brd work more on rng than priority, which is still better than fixed. Smn is probably the closest thing to priority in this game and that barely scratches the surface of what could be done.

[RapBreon]

Perhaps they just failed to make fun classes I don't have experience with them. As I said priority isn't mind blowing by any means, but you can't tell me with proper design it's more fun to repeat 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3... than having to actually consider what your next action is going to be. Mch and brd work more on rng than priority, which is still better than fixed. Smn is probably the closest thing to priority in this game and that barely scratches the surface of what could be done.

You don't consider your next move after a bit of time spent. It's muscle memory. I've played both complex and simple priority based classes. The difference is it takes longer to burn the rhythm of your class into your head. I used to have to consider my oGCDs as a Dragoon, played it for a bit, now I do it as a pure reaction. I used to 'manage' Blood of the Dragoon. I don't even do that anymore, I know exactly where each Geirskogul is going.

It's actually why I like positionals in this game a lot, melee is entirely unique in this game on that point (well besides Rogue archetypes, but always behind is a given). Taking a chance for more potency and chasing his ass while they spin is fun. The actual rotation itself means not much to me beyond lining up that 'wombo combo' of big numbers.

Also I can tell you that! People are different! Some find the reliability of a pattern engaging and rewarding when they master said pattern. Because then you can transpose your class' pattern onto the boss', so you know what you're doing - exactly - and when. It's actually one of the reasons I find raiding in this game so enjoyable, you eventually get it down to a damn science. You assume everyone thinks like you!

[Reynhart]

Going on record to say that is my actual least favorite fight in the game. I'd rather eat rusty nails than do that boring piece of donkey's ass.

Cerberus, too ?

So it would automatically favour a PLD because they can do something other than DPS (a DRK and WAR literally can not doing anything but use their attack skills).

Example ?