Why not just make everyone a DPS?

[nyttyn]

If they actually wanted to force tanks to run VIT, they'd make slaying accessories STR-class only, put in tankbuster HP checks, move some defense from tank gear onto accessories to force tanks to pack those as well, or make tank accessories more attractive.

As they've done none of these things, it doesn't matter what their 'intent' is, their current setup of encounters flies in the face of it.

[Abbul_Stonecleaver]

For tanks that like turtle style, that is fine, and it is still plausible for some groups. I know it's still a debate on various forums about which is greater dps gain: healer dps'ing with turtle tanks or healer dps'ing with aggressive tanks.

One group I know goes with turtle tanks, and their Scholar does some serious dps. She pulled over 900 in AS2 last week and high numbers as well in AS1.

Basically, someone should be maximizing dps for optimal play, but the other can take that responsibility of allowing it to happen.. Including turtle tanks. Maybe that bothers some of you, but I find it to be far more interesting than tank is a turtle and healer is a healbot.

[Iagainsti]

This thread tho.

If the OP played then or anyone else recalls, I warrior tanked when our group first fought T5. My rotation then was to pop berserk into IB, infuriate>heavy swing>IB then drop defiance into SE combos to(you guessed it) maximize my damage because that's what the raid called for when it was true endgame(release of 2.0; I90 average level wasn't a thing for most- first runs at Twin I was avg i87) everyone had to eek out as much damage as they could because the tier of gear called for it. Then CT came out, they echoed the Turns and added them to DF. No need to play at that peak performance. The. You hit T9 and repeated the process.

Point is, welcome to endgame. Sorry that, as a tank or healer, you're expected to pump some damage in to shorten phases, just like DDs are expected to dodge and burn in time frames to shorten phases and minimize unnecessary healing/mp waste. Quit complaining and acting like this is something new.

[Iagainsti]

The only real defense is an active defense- Mao Zedong

[HoodRat]

- Tank-specific Fending accessories contain zero Strength.
- Tanks cannot roll on Strength accessories.
- Devs have stated they do not like the advantage Pentameld Crafted gear gives. There are no Accessories higher than 150 whites for tanks.
- 3.0 added Accuracy to tank stances, implying the Devs expect tanks to only use DPS stances from the side/flank.
- Healer gear contains zero accuracy now and they've specifically stated they dont want to balance fights with healers dpsing.
- Devs stated Warrior's advantage was "damage" as an offtank, but there's no current raid need/advantage for the "utility" PLD/DRK OTs offer.

Well, if we do that can we also add in-game dps meters, a personal dps record that tracks the average dps of your class and then put up an average dps requirement for dps classes for everything in duty finder? Or at least have the devs make a detailed guide for every dps class that people are forced to go through every time they switch to a dps class? I'm sure I'm not the only tank having the highest dps in expert roulette/df alexander runs.

Oh, and since you want to lower tank dps, can we just make all boss fights something where I can just hit flash once, put my character into some heroic pose which gives me infinite enmity and then leave the room and go make a sandwich? Apparently you don't want tanks attacking things so that seems pretty fair to me since attacking things is pretty much all there is to this game besides crafting and gathering. Then again, miners and botanists look pretty aggressive when they swing their tools at rocks and trees. Can we go ahead and lower their dps too?

[Izsha]

The fights are designed with tanks in vit gear. Trouble is we are trying to do them many ilvls short of what they were designed to be. The devs didn't tune A1 to be done at i180 ish, but that's what we were when it was released. So if we are undergeared, then the dps can't meet the dps checks the fight is tuned for. The only way to do it is with min maxing healer and tank dps to augment the crappy ilvl and do it with stuff like penta meld accs and such.

As I said earlier, if you want to turtle tank that's fine, but you will have to sit on you hands until people are at the ilvl the fight is actually tuned for. And considering most players aren't nearly goood enough to beat the fights at the minimum tuned ilvl, you will have to sit around and gear up your team even more to successfully turtle tank with a more avg quality group.

If you want to be part of the elite 1st wave you have to squeeze more out of every job. That means damage. If you have an A rate team you can turtle tank at the designed tuned ilvl. If you're team is of avg level then you will have to OVERGEAR the content to turtle because most people can't hack optimal play.

The fights are designed to be beatable by the best players at a specific ilvl in turtle gear. If you aren't the best team or proper ilvl then tough titties. Get some more gear and/or skills in your team. If you want to push the envelope then you have to lush your own envelope.

If your team is 1 or both of:
*below designed ilvl
*not the best players in the world

Then you will fail dps checks because they are DESIGNED to be harder than what you can muster in that state. The only way to have turtle tanks work in undergearsd/underskilled groups than the fight is tuned to is to soften the dps checks. That defeats the purpose of tuning the fight I'm the 1st place. The tank meta is this way because it's the ONLY way to beat a fight below it's designed tuning. If people don't try fights above their ilvl/skill then you don't have to tank dps. But you can't have it both ways.

[RapBreon]

snip.

+1.

Not to mention it's been this way in all MMOs with a heavy emphasis on raiding in the first weeks of a hard tier's release (exceptions withstanding, like 1 tank strats or easy tiers). It is simply the nature of a hard DPS check.

[Yorumi]

The fights are designed with tanks in vit gear. Trouble is we are trying to do them many ilvls short of what they were designed to be. The devs didn't tune A1 to be done at i180 ish, but that's what we were when it was released. So if we are undergeared, then the dps can't meet the dps checks the fight is tuned for. The only way to do it is with min maxing healer and tank dps to augment the crappy ilvl and do it with stuff like penta meld accs and such.

It's bad design because only the dps is being tested, not anyone else. Why is the test of a tank how much dps can you do, not how well can you reduce incoming damage? Why is the test of a healer how much dps can you do, not well can you optimize healing output? It's bad design when you have 3 roles and only one of them matters at all in a raid. It's bad design when a tank can gear in tank gear and be told by the community he's bad because he didn't gear in gear that he's not even allowed to roll on.

It goes back to the topic title, if we're going to accept this bad design for encounters then why no just give up this farse of multiple roles and make everyone a dps?

[Sapphidia]

Personally I feel like Warriors are superbly well balanced. They're a great class, don't need any nerfs and seem to be really fun for the players who like that kind of aggressive playstyle. They do okayish damage in pure tank stance, can stance dance easily in safer situations to really pump out good tank dps, and in an Offtank role they do just a little bit less damage than the more support-focussed DPS classes. They don't really have any irrelevant or clunky skills. Noone in this thread is calling for Warrior nerfs.

The issue is more that we've been told that Warrior's "niche" is being the tank the does dps. Paladins and Dark Knights have a niche of being able to take more physical or magical damage respectively, although as maths have proven the difference in mitigation is very very little, and is more an ease of use thing. It's fine really, but due to how all the current tough raid encounters are all about hard DPS checks, the stuff that non-warriors bring to the table is basically irrelevant for most raid groups right now. "Don't mind that our MT does 100 less dps, she has Divine Seal!".

To all the people saying that it's about playing your class to its fullest, l2dps and suck it up etc : I get that, and I do. All of us tanks going through Savage Alex right now are focusing on maxing our DPS. We're not being bads, we're not taking a stand and forcing our raid groups to let us tank in vit gear doing 200 dps.

We're questioning why DPS output is the ONLY thing we're being tested in. People say that "we're undergeared" compared to the tuning of the encounter and thus tanks need to step up DPS to help the raid hit targets. I ask this : if we're undergeared for the encounter tuning... why are we not being tested on our ability to TAKE DAMAGE? Why are we not having to weave stoneskins between big boss attacks and keep cooldowns rolling 100% of the time, why are we not dropping dead if a healer spends half their time DPSing? Why are we able to spend half an encounter in Sword Oath and go in with 16k health?

If we can go into current encounters "undergeared", and complete them successfully in DPS gear and DPS stances, all that shows me is that the fights are completely undertuned when it comes to testing the tank's tanking ability, and there's literally zero reason for me to care about my survivability. All i need do is go in like a glass cannon DPS and pop a cooldown at the right moment. Is this bad or wrong game design? Not really, it's just a little unexpected for some people.

Is it fun to max DPS? Yes. It's always fun to push the limits of a class. But where's my incentive to make myself tougher? It's a design decision, and it's one that half the players like, and half the players seem not to. I doubt it will change, and whining about it on the forum wont necessarily do anything. I'm still going to be going into Alex Savage again tonight in strength spec with sword oath readied and a stack of HQ Strength pots. It's fine to have encounters that focus on DPS.

But I'd like one or two that massively test my ability to take damage when undergeared too, please. I guess Alex 2 is kinda close to that, albeit a bit weird due to tachikoma stuns and an ideal want for high AOE dps from tanks too. I hope people know what I mean though. There's only four tough raid encounters in the game right now - I just hope the next set of raids are less like Alex 1/3 as far as tank expectations.

[RapBreon]

But I'd like one or two that massively test my ability to take damage when undergeared too, please. I guess Alex 2 is kinda close to that, albeit a bit weird due to tachikoma stuns and an ideal want for high AOE dps from tanks too. I hope people know what I mean though. There's only four tough raid encounters in the game right now - I just hope the next set of raids are less like Alex 1/3 as far as tank expectations.

Judging by your post you know the answer to your problem. If a DPS check is tight, the value of a DPS centric tank's value increases. You'll then work around their inferior mitigation relying on the skill of your tanks and healers, due to the amount of tools each player has access too. There is no other way to work around a DPS check.

If the DPS check isn't as tight - as in a coordination based fight or mechanically complex fight - you'll take something that stabilizes the group providing a larger margin for error, because there are numerous ways to work around fights like that. If a fight includes both in ample quantities, the DPS check always supersedes any other kind of mechanic due to its binary nature (you meet it and there is only one way to meet it or you lose). Truly difficult fights include both. Therein lies the problem. Square wanted to make this tier 'exceptionally hard'. This means tight DPS checks are a necessity.

But here's the real rub, if you start making tank mitigation super important (even though it is still being checked), WARs will simply take the place of PLDs on the sidelines. You can't win either way. If next tier becomes all tank busters and meh dps checks (an easier tier in general then), it'll be the WARs in here doing the exact same thing (80 DPS shouldn't mean I can't do XYZ). The best Square can do is make a tier that has fights super reliant on a DPS check and some that aren't as reliant (but still important), keeping all the tanks relevant. Unless of course you want to make all the tanks the same. But holy hell, I hate that, rather deal with the imbalance.

The complaining is stemming from the fact there are only 3 real fights known to the public with an overwhelming majority primarily doing the 1st, which favours WARs. Essentially, for most people trying to clear Savage as a non-WAR it boils down to "I don't like this tier/boss, it doesn't favour my play-style", which is fine. Coil didn't favour mine, re-rolled a PLD for Hallowed Ground anyway, still had a blast. Now this tier I get to (or was going to T.T) DPS my little tank heart out. This is what it's like trying to clear content meant to be hard, not fair when ilvls are low. You play optimally, not how you like (which for me, is the same thing! Lucky me!).

Honestly I wouldn't of had a problem with tanks not being able to tank any of Alex Sav without vit gear (stricter healer and tank checks). But I can tell you not many people would have cleared it if that were the case. It would also be a metric shit-ton harder to balance for when you consider all of the utility spells everyone has access to compared to a simple DPS check (possibly not very creative on Square's end). For example; a BLM would all of a sudden become more valuable (possibly mandatory, reminds me of Shadow Priest stacking hahaha) for Apocatastasis on A1 simple because your tanks can't survive the tank buster that now does double the damage it does now.

/procrastination!