PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Ercapote]

You can edit everything into one post, just FYI

I'm new to the forum and it said that it was too long so IDK i just split the post

[Phoenicia]

Finally! god bless you and all the smart people on this treat that knows what the hell we are talking about, I've been following this entire post for 2 days and god this "Phoenica" person was getting on my nerves this ladies and gentleman is the current true state of this situation and the reason PALADIN is the current focus on the matter.

Honestly if anyone keep claiming other wise they are trying to hard to be so wrong about something that doesn't have any other way around. It is what it is.

I think people claiming otherwise aren't even pallys and are just hardly trying to protect their class of choice because they know right now is so perfect and has it's confy spot on every raid group right "phoenica"?

Ok, so you agree with the guy that agrees with me that PLD shouldn't do more DPS as long as it has this "safety net" even if this safety net is not needed, cool.

So in your opinion I'm just claiming PLD shouldn't get buffed because I'm "hardly" trying to protect my class of choice?

Errrm, English Lesson: "hardly" means I am "not trying". Hardly is like barely. It is "almost there" but it isn't.

Another thing: I'm a good player and already have a static and I can join any static as any class because I can prove I'm good. I don't need to cry on the forums to buff my class when it's a case of gitgud. So I don't need to protect my class of choice from getting any raid spots.

As a tank, I play whatever tank is needed for my group to progress. Which is why I was a PLD for the later half of 2.5. I played PLD long enough to know that its stronger CDs are enough safety to warrant why it shouldn't do as much DPS. But here is the funny thing, PLD does good DPS if it really wants to. If you can't.... gitgud.

On a last remark, my new class of choice is "Summoner". An overpowered PLD doesn't threaten me in any way. I still think PLD shouldn't get its DPS buffed unless they give up their defenses.

Anyways, this thread is a joke and wasting anymore time here won't help fix the hive mind of people thinking PLD is junk. Who knows? Maybe SE makes the class more interesting if people complain enough.

[Ivellior]

Ok, so you agree with the guy that agrees with me that PLD shouldn't do more DPS as long as it has this "safety net" even if this safety net is not needed, cool.

For the record I don't agree with you and nothing I said matches what you are saying. Please read what I wrote.
What you are saying basically is: "Paladin is fine because it has a safety net, get good." What we are saying that defence stats are bad in the current meta and that all the extra safety the paladin has is useless (just like clemency). If safety was good people would be stacking VIT/Parry and not trying to get rid of it.
The fact that the new raids are very DRK friendly and the rest of utility the PLD brings isn't really something to write home about, only make things worse. That makes the PLD undesirable compared to other tanks. Is it impossible to clear with a paladin? No it isn't, but it isn't impossible to clear with AST too.
And since safety isn't even good when during progression where the error margins are the thinnest, that means that when people get better items and error margins and the damage difference increase Paladin will become even more irrelevant.
The tradeoff between the loss of the dps for the extra defences in the current meta and raid design is not worth it, no matter how you try to spin it. But apparently the WAR hive mind is unable to process that fact.

[Phoenicia]

Snips.

I read your entire post, it's the same redundant crap of how defense doesn't matter as long as you DPS. A post full of misguided information and following the major misconception the hive mind has of "Lucrezia replaced PLD for DRK, hence PLD Broken".

I also surmised from your post that PLD should do more DPS "if it lost defense". Otherwise you are as stupid as the rest of the PLD community crying for more DPS while keeping their defensive superiority.

I didn't say PLD is fine because it has a safety net. I said PLD is fine because it is "SAFE". There is a difference between safety and safety nets.

Safety Net: a safeguard against possible hardship or adversity.

PLD is not your safety net, your healer is! PLD prevents things from going bad in the first place, hence, safe.

If you're driving a car: Your PLD is "driving the car carefully and following driving laws" while your healer is your "seat belt and airbags". Seat belts and Airbags aren't doing their job until accidents happen. But driving carefully means accidents wouldn't happen (unless things out of your control happen).

You do need a minimum VIT to survive. No tank goes into Savage in full STR gear.

Parry is trash because you cannot guarantee that you will reduce the damage needed to be reduced. So even if it DID work on busters (like the entirety of 2.xx), you shouldn't rely on parry. Just because it's a "defensive stat" doesn't mean it is "good". It doesn't do what it should in the first place.

Your point of tanks stacking VIT and parry is as irrelevant as saying it is now sunny in China.

PLD was the best MT for the entirety of 2.xx even though WAR could reduce more damage on most encounters and do more (Twice!!) MT damage. Reason? Safety.

What I have been saying in all my posts:

- PLD hasn't changed in any way. They got more DPS combos (more DPS) and Sheltron (mitigation) and Clemency (support).
- WAR hasn't changed for the most part. They got Deliverance so that when they actually DPS, they do not lose access to their highest potency attacks like they did in 2.xx.
- DRK has been added.

WAR MT / any OT aren't a thing because of safety.

PLD MT is the default option, A1S and A2S were attempted and cleared with PLD MT. A3S was attempted for the longest time with PLD MT and then in order to bring a NIN instead of a MNK, PLD was replaced by DRK.

Also, if people weren't so stupid, no group setups would be changed, PLD DPS as OT is very high and within an 8% margin of WAR!

You disregarded Hallowed Ground safety and said other tanks have "comparable" abilities, let's tackle that:

Living Dead: Is HORRIBLE! It sucks compared to HG!
1- It requires a trigger. You may use the skill and never get immune because you never hit 0 HP!
2- It requires another safety net CD in Benediction. Even if Benediction wasn't used, the amount of Lustrates and Essential Dignity blown to cover its down side is BAD.
3- Living Dead CD isn't that much shorter than HG at 5 minutes. And
4- A healer panicking can remove the immunity buff early.
5- You still take damage so effects like debuffs (Ravana invulnerability up) and knockbacks (Titan HM/EX) go through.

Holmgang: 1- Roots you in place and you may eat up an AoE you shouldn't as it expires and you end up dying, beating the whole purpose of the ability.
2- Lasts only half as long as HG. Before you smart-ass this, it's 6 seconds, but you need to be alive and above 1HP to use it before you hit the 1 HP. You also need to be healed before it expires or you die. Any seconds spent while you are above 1 HP are wasted. And any heals received before its last second are damage not mitigated.
3- Requires a target. You can't cheese mechanics when you do not have a target like HG does.
4- You still take damage so effects like debuffs (Ravana invulnerability up) and knockbacks (Titan HM/EX) go through.
5- Needs to be healed after. Either from healers or blowing self-heals.

Now let's compare them to Hallowed Ground:
1- Full immunity at any % of HP.
2- Granted full immunity, any debuffs from damage or knockbacks don't apply.
3- No healer input required. As a matter of fact, you can use these 10 seconds to heal yourself back to full using Clemency. You can't get interrupted.
4- Has no conditions tied to it other than a long CD. You do not need a target. You do not need a trigger.

So you can see where your logic of "Hallowed Ground isn't that great because it's on a long CD and other tanks have a comparable CD" fails. No, other tanks don't even come close to HG. What do you want here? Hallowed Ground on a 3 min CD? Come on.

The difference in DPS between the tanks has been proven to be within ~90 DPS. You are over-exaggerating the DPS variance between the tanks.

PLD takes less fluff damage than the other two tanks and require no more healer attention than a couple layers of regen/fairy heals.

Take A1S for example, PLD mitigates magical busters just fine. Outside of tank busters, a PLD can block hence mitigating more fluff than DRK. On busters, DRK will couple Shadowskin or Shadow Wall with Dark Mind for 44% or 51% mitigation resptively. PLD will rotate Sentinel for 40% and HG for 100%!! mitigation then Sentinel again. The fight should end with 3 busters.

Now the damage mitigation should not matter that much, but it allows healers to do more damage. Whatever less DPS the PLD didn't do, the healers can make up for it.

From there it is a strategic choice: Should we get PLD to be sure to mitigate more? or get a DRK and do slightly more DPS?

If anything, have you looked at how DRK mitigates Physical Damage? Now we have a broken class! Unlike WAR, DRK has huge gaps between its CDs and unlike PLD it doesn't have the passive mitigation of a shield. Had any of the Alexander Savage encounters have Physical Busters, the DRKs would be the ones clustering these forums with threads saying that they don't bring enough to a raid to warrant their spot. As a matter of fact, DRKs were already clustering these forums with those exact threads. Just go back two pages on the thread list. And I really think SE should look into this if they are going further into the future.

In all my previous posts I provided numbers how PLD is not far behind in DPS and is also in the ahead in terms of mitigation in both terms of Physical and Magical. All you have provided is irrelevant VIT/Parry stacking and the same line everyone is throwing "Lucrezia replaced PLD". If you can provide the math why PLD's mitigation shouldn't prevent them from having the same DPS as DRK, please do!

Now I have wasted enough time in this thread.

[Reynhart]

If you're driving a car: Your PLD is "driving the car carefully and following driving laws" while your healer is your "seat belt and airbags". Seat belts and Airbags aren't doing their job until accidents happen. But driving carefully means accidents wouldn't happen (unless things out of your control happen).

In fact, PLD is "I'll drive 20 miles below max authorized speed so that I'll risk less", while other tanks simply stay at the max authorized speed...you know who is enough to properly avoid most of the accidents.
But, after all, who cares if journeying with a PLD takes several more hours

[Phoenicia]

In fact, PLD is "I'll drive 20 miles below max authorized speed so that I'll risk less", while other tanks simply stay at the max authorized speed...you know who is enough to properly avoid most of the accidents.
But, after all, who cares if journeying with a PLD takes several more hours

Nah, that's more like PLD is a Volvo with a lower max speed than a Corvette (WAR) but far more safety...... I know, I suck at cars! ;_;

If your PLD driver (the player) is playing at 20 miles below max then that's his problem for not optimally playing, not the car (class).

But I like how you're playing the same game lol.

Also, what's wrong with the journey taking more hours if you enjoy the company? Huh? think about it!

[Reynhart]

If your PLD driver (the player) is playing at 20 miles below max then that's his problem for not optimally playing, not the car (class).

Not below the max speed of the car, below the max authorized speed.

Also, what's wrong with the journey taking more hours if you enjoy the company? Huh? think about it!

I kind of remembering someone on this thread trying to convince me that "Faster is better" ? Any idea who that is

[Ivellior]

I read your entire post, it's the same redundant crap of how defense doesn't matter as long as you DPS. A post full of misguided information and following the major misconception the hive mind has of "Lucrezia replaced PLD for DRK, hence PLD Broken".

Because someoene does not agree with you and your WAR hive mind it doesn't mean it's crap. People have different opinions. You don't have to agree with it, as I don't agree with yours. You don't see me going around calling crap despite how misinformed you seem to be.
Like I said before, the same problems that high end raiding groups are facing today are the problems your raiding group will face tomorrow. You don't have to agree with but most people do.

I also surmised from your post that PLD should do more DPS "if it lost defense". Otherwise you are as stupid as the rest of the PLD community crying for more DPS while keeping their defensive superiority.

Of course more damage should come at the expense of something. If you give PLD the same damage as WAR people will take double PLD. And if you give WAR the same defenses of PLD people will take WAR. Why? Because it's efficient and that's what the "hive" mind will do.
Unless they make defences somehow useful or needed, they are a burden on the whole team. That's how it works and that is why everyone is trying to minimize defences.

I didn't say PLD is fine because it has a safety net. I said PLD is fine because it is "SAFE". There is a difference between safety and safety nets.

Safety Net: ...

You are arguing about semantics. Everyone understands we both meant the PLD defences and it's not contributing anything in the conversation. And since you just want to argue about semantics, yes, you did: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3239359

You do need a minimum VIT to survive. No tank goes into Savage in full STR gear.

Parry is trash ...

Your point of tanks stacking VIT and parry is as irrelevant as saying it is now sunny in China.

You are either totally missing the point or you are just avoiding it because it doesn't fit your narrative. Of course VIT and Parry are bad. They are bad because the META (raid design) dictates that clear speed (ie damage) is the most efficient thing.
If you had raid encounters designed as battle of attrition then defences woud be more meaningful. Right now they aren't. And thus why a DEFENSE focused tank doesn't fit well in a META where DEFENCES ARE BAD. You can spin it, dress it, put cream and sugar on top but nothing will change this fact.
That is why in the current META the paladin is inherently bad because as long as defences are bad, a tank that is focused on defences will be bad. I really can't make it any clearer than that.

PLD was the best MT for the entirety of 2.xx even though WAR could reduce more damage on most encounters and do more (Twice!!) MT damage. Reason? Safety.

Which part of safety doesn't matter do I need to repeat? People used PLD as MT because you took one of each tank and PLD as MT was more efficient as MT than OT.

What I have been saying in all my posts:

...

Also, if people weren't so stupid, no group setups would be changed, PLD DPS as OT is very high and within an 8% margin of WAR!

Neither a paladin, not a DRK can get within 8% margin of WAR damage. And I don't think anyone believes that. If it was possible you would see groups with a DRK / PLD combo clearing savage level 3. If those group exists they are even rarer than groups with AST.
The WAR damage output is pretty much the reason why it is pretty much mandatory (balance!) in all raid groups. Oh wait, the hive mind dictates that, sorry.

You disregarded Hallowed Ground safety and said other tanks have "comparable" abilities, let's tackle that:

...

Now I have wasted enough time in this thread.

But Hallowed Ground is SAFE! Sometimes I really wish they would just remove it from paladin to spare me from people like you.
Is Hallowed Ground better than the other two equivalents? Yes. That is plain for everyone to see. It's better for the healers since they are given a 10 second reprieve.
Does it change anything for the tank? No not really. It's just another cooldown you that you pop and you continue doing what you were doing before. The same is true for the other abilities. And I don't being locked into place for 6 seconds is quite the handicap you are making it out to be.
And just as you plan to use Hallowed, you also plan to use the other abilities. What does that mean? It means that your healers KNOW it's coming and they will PREPARE for it. You don't go out poping that cooldown for the kicks. They are not as efficient as hallowed, but they are not bad to be unusable (hello clemency!). The cooldown of the WAR allows for it to be used reliably for more than one time, but the living dead cooldown isn't that forgiving.
From what I understand the only thing that will make you happy on this subject is to give Hallowed Ground to WAR, because apparently it's the only thing you are missing.

So in conclusion people will do what is the most efficient thing to do. That is way people level with fates and not killing monsters. If something is efficient enough and provides some incentives(leveling with dungeons and loot for example) people will use that too.
That is why 99% of the tank combinations is WAR + something, but I guess that is what balance equates for the WAR hive mind. That is also why the PLD is not in a good spot right. The incentives paladin provides are not good enough to offset the loss in damage.
As it stands now the only practical scenario I see where PLD strengths offset their lack of dps is PUG savage raid groups.

As a side note. If I have to say something to blame that is the way the raids are designed. There is absolutely no tradeoff in picking Attack stats over Defence stats. All of the tank classes would work just fine if that was true. For example picking STR meant considerably increased your chances of dying or high vitality increased regeneration considerably.
It would even make the tank gameplay richer and strategic. Right not tanks are a subpar dps that exists only because you can't replace it with a dps.

[Phoenicia]

Because someoene does not agree with you and your WAR hive mind it doesn't mean it's crap. People have different opinions. You don't have to agree with it, as I don't agree with yours. You don't see me going around calling crap despite how misinformed you seem to be.
Like I said before, the same problems that high end raiding groups are facing today are the problems your raiding group will face tomorrow. You don't have to agree with but most people do.

You assuming I'm a WAR in the first place and adding me to a non-existing "WAR-hive mind" is a total joke.

I called it crap because NONE of the people that are trying to sell their point of PLD being broken can back up their claims with solid proves, be it numbers or actual facts other than "Lucrezia dropped PLD boo-hoo".

Which part of safety doesn't matter do I need to repeat? People used PLD as MT because you took one of each tank and PLD as MT was more efficient as MT than OT.

Not really, people took PLD to MT and they took "another tank" to OT. The other tank didn't matter as PLD or WAR were fine. Double jobs LB penalty didn't prevent groups from taking double MNKs for the entirety of SCoB and FCoB progression and that "meta" only broke when NIN came out since Trick Attack added more raid DPS than 1 MNK dropping DK in favor of Bootshine.

You also pointed out somewhere in your post that people would take double WAR if it had the defenses of PLD. Well, why aren't they already? Since DPS is everything and all. Again, LB penalty didn't stop people from double monking in SCoB and FCoB.

Neither a paladin, not a DRK can get within 8% margin of WAR damage. And I don't think anyone believes that. If it was possible you would see groups with a DRK / PLD combo clearing savage level 3. If those group exists they are even rarer than groups with AST.
The WAR damage output is pretty much the reason why it is pretty much mandatory (balance!) in all raid groups. Oh wait, the hive mind dictates that, sorry.

Check this. DRK is 3% behind WAR, PLD is 8% behind WAR.
Yes it's a dummy parse. Yes it's "too perfect" with all these buffs provided. But in a real fight PLD comes closer because of down times (bosses jump and have in-vulnerabilities).

People not going PLD / DRK is just a stupidity thing. It's like why people wouldn't let WAR solo tank T9 or Shiva Ex. In the end there are those that did them.

But Hallowed Ground is SAFE! Sometimes I really wish they would just remove it from paladin to spare me from people like you.
Is Hallowed Ground better than the other two equivalents? Yes. That is plain for everyone to see. It's better for the healers since they are given a 10 second reprieve.
Does it change anything for the tank? No not really. It's just another cooldown you that you pop and you continue doing what you were doing before. The same is true for the other abilities. And I don't being locked into place for 6 seconds is quite the handicap you are making it out to be.
And just as you plan to use Hallowed, you also plan to use the other abilities. What does that mean? It means that your healers KNOW it's coming and they will PREPARE for it. You don't go out poping that cooldown for the kicks. They are not as efficient as hallowed, but they are not bad to be unusable (hello clemency!). The cooldown of the WAR allows for it to be used reliably for more than one time, but the living dead cooldown isn't that forgiving.
From what I understand the only thing that will make you happy on this subject is to give Hallowed Ground to WAR, because apparently it's the only thing you are missing.

Here are a few reasons why you are wrong:

- Even when planned, Holmgang is not worth using. A WAR stacking any of its CDs with IB will reduce far more damage and require far less healing than a WAR going down to 1HP and then healed back to full. Same can be said about DRK. This is the main reason WARs and DRKs don't "plan" using Holmgang and LD unless they really need to.
- Hallowed Ground can cheese an entire mechanic or render a tank buster irrelevant.
- Most end-game fights are 11 to 15 minutes. You can use HG effectively twice. Planning them WILL make an encounter easier.

WAR is missing far more than just Hallowed Ground. WAR receives 4% less healing from spells and 20% less from abilities. I'd want that "fixed" before I'd even ask for Hallowed Ground.

If anything, I am sick of Hallowed Ground because for the entirety of ARR, I used to breech at WAR MT PLD OT and the paladins would reply with "Hallowed Ground". Now that it is inconvenient you wish it wasn't there? The joke's on you PLDs. What's even funnier is that PLDs now retort at WARs with "But you have Inner Beast!".

So in conclusion people will do what is the most efficient thing to do. That is way people level with fates and not killing monsters. If something is efficient enough and provides some incentives(leveling with dungeons and loot for example) people will use that too.
That is why 99% of the tank combinations is WAR + something, but I guess that is what balance equates for the WAR hive mind. That is also why the PLD is not in a good spot right. The incentives paladin provides are not good enough to offset the loss in damage.
As it stands now the only practical scenario I see where PLD strengths offset their lack of dps is PUG savage raid groups.

Efficiency is one thing and people naturally always pick up the most efficient route. But you are ignoring the whole healing efficiency. People dying is an huge raid-wide DPS. But since you want to stick to your misinformed point-of-view I won't "argue" safety.

Yes PLD may not be in the best spot it's been since 2.0, but it is not in a bad spot. It is no where near AST or 2.0 WAR.

WAR is sitting comfortably in the OT spot because PLD and DRK are fighting each other hard for the MT spot. Should I mention how annoying it is from a balance (more like Hive mindset) perspective that WAR is stuck with the "over-glorified DPS" role where it's never the preferred MT?

As a side note. If I have to say something to blame that is the way the raids are designed. There is absolutely no tradeoff in picking Attack stats over Defence stats. All of the tank classes would work just fine if that was true. For example picking STR meant considerably increased your chances of dying or high vitality increased regeneration considerably.
It would even make the tank gameplay richer and strategic. Right not tanks are a subpar dps that exists only because you can't replace it with a dps.

Bad stat design is this game's biggest flaw. But you know why people ignore VIT and Parry? It's because of the tank's defensive CDs! Guess who has the best? Oh right! PLD!

Again, what I am saying is "PLD is fine as it is. As long as it is defensively superior, its DPS should never be upped!"
This is not me saying it shouldn't be changed. I am saying it shouldn't be buffed. If SE decides to give PLD more DPS at the cost of its defenses, I'm more than happy for them, grats!

Anyways, say what you will. I sincerely hope you can provide numbers or videos that prove that PLD is broken. Otherwise this thread is a big waste of time.

[Comrade_uri]

I have been reading for some time. Tbh most of this seems to be, well dumb to be honest. Numbers have flown over my head, I play this game for the enjoyment game and doing my best with it not what is the flavour of the month so to speak. I choose WAR and had to fight through the shadow left by the 2.0 version of my class when i started in march of last year i never got kicked I know healers weren't keen on me. What I am getting at is if you like it play it and bugger everyone else and if this bothers you that much complaining on here ain't going to change much. I do agree though that PLD's are not to blame and as a class they are fine, hell I'm lvling one up now and I am enjoying the change of pace. I do agree though that it is the raid designs that are causing the issue not the class. These seem to be designed to showcase the DRK so I think we should wait for the next set of raids to come out. Who knows they might favour a DRK PLD set up.