PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Phoenicia]

Because someoene does not agree with you and your WAR hive mind it doesn't mean it's crap. People have different opinions. You don't have to agree with it, as I don't agree with yours. You don't see me going around calling crap despite how misinformed you seem to be.
Like I said before, the same problems that high end raiding groups are facing today are the problems your raiding group will face tomorrow. You don't have to agree with but most people do.

You assuming I'm a WAR in the first place and adding me to a non-existing "WAR-hive mind" is a total joke.

I called it crap because NONE of the people that are trying to sell their point of PLD being broken can back up their claims with solid proves, be it numbers or actual facts other than "Lucrezia dropped PLD boo-hoo".

Which part of safety doesn't matter do I need to repeat? People used PLD as MT because you took one of each tank and PLD as MT was more efficient as MT than OT.

Not really, people took PLD to MT and they took "another tank" to OT. The other tank didn't matter as PLD or WAR were fine. Double jobs LB penalty didn't prevent groups from taking double MNKs for the entirety of SCoB and FCoB progression and that "meta" only broke when NIN came out since Trick Attack added more raid DPS than 1 MNK dropping DK in favor of Bootshine.

You also pointed out somewhere in your post that people would take double WAR if it had the defenses of PLD. Well, why aren't they already? Since DPS is everything and all. Again, LB penalty didn't stop people from double monking in SCoB and FCoB.

Neither a paladin, not a DRK can get within 8% margin of WAR damage. And I don't think anyone believes that. If it was possible you would see groups with a DRK / PLD combo clearing savage level 3. If those group exists they are even rarer than groups with AST.
The WAR damage output is pretty much the reason why it is pretty much mandatory (balance!) in all raid groups. Oh wait, the hive mind dictates that, sorry.

Check this. DRK is 3% behind WAR, PLD is 8% behind WAR.
Yes it's a dummy parse. Yes it's "too perfect" with all these buffs provided. But in a real fight PLD comes closer because of down times (bosses jump and have in-vulnerabilities).

People not going PLD / DRK is just a stupidity thing. It's like why people wouldn't let WAR solo tank T9 or Shiva Ex. In the end there are those that did them.

But Hallowed Ground is SAFE! Sometimes I really wish they would just remove it from paladin to spare me from people like you.
Is Hallowed Ground better than the other two equivalents? Yes. That is plain for everyone to see. It's better for the healers since they are given a 10 second reprieve.
Does it change anything for the tank? No not really. It's just another cooldown you that you pop and you continue doing what you were doing before. The same is true for the other abilities. And I don't being locked into place for 6 seconds is quite the handicap you are making it out to be.
And just as you plan to use Hallowed, you also plan to use the other abilities. What does that mean? It means that your healers KNOW it's coming and they will PREPARE for it. You don't go out poping that cooldown for the kicks. They are not as efficient as hallowed, but they are not bad to be unusable (hello clemency!). The cooldown of the WAR allows for it to be used reliably for more than one time, but the living dead cooldown isn't that forgiving.
From what I understand the only thing that will make you happy on this subject is to give Hallowed Ground to WAR, because apparently it's the only thing you are missing.

Here are a few reasons why you are wrong:

- Even when planned, Holmgang is not worth using. A WAR stacking any of its CDs with IB will reduce far more damage and require far less healing than a WAR going down to 1HP and then healed back to full. Same can be said about DRK. This is the main reason WARs and DRKs don't "plan" using Holmgang and LD unless they really need to.
- Hallowed Ground can cheese an entire mechanic or render a tank buster irrelevant.
- Most end-game fights are 11 to 15 minutes. You can use HG effectively twice. Planning them WILL make an encounter easier.

WAR is missing far more than just Hallowed Ground. WAR receives 4% less healing from spells and 20% less from abilities. I'd want that "fixed" before I'd even ask for Hallowed Ground.

If anything, I am sick of Hallowed Ground because for the entirety of ARR, I used to breech at WAR MT PLD OT and the paladins would reply with "Hallowed Ground". Now that it is inconvenient you wish it wasn't there? The joke's on you PLDs. What's even funnier is that PLDs now retort at WARs with "But you have Inner Beast!".

So in conclusion people will do what is the most efficient thing to do. That is way people level with fates and not killing monsters. If something is efficient enough and provides some incentives(leveling with dungeons and loot for example) people will use that too.
That is why 99% of the tank combinations is WAR + something, but I guess that is what balance equates for the WAR hive mind. That is also why the PLD is not in a good spot right. The incentives paladin provides are not good enough to offset the loss in damage.
As it stands now the only practical scenario I see where PLD strengths offset their lack of dps is PUG savage raid groups.

Efficiency is one thing and people naturally always pick up the most efficient route. But you are ignoring the whole healing efficiency. People dying is an huge raid-wide DPS. But since you want to stick to your misinformed point-of-view I won't "argue" safety.

Yes PLD may not be in the best spot it's been since 2.0, but it is not in a bad spot. It is no where near AST or 2.0 WAR.

WAR is sitting comfortably in the OT spot because PLD and DRK are fighting each other hard for the MT spot. Should I mention how annoying it is from a balance (more like Hive mindset) perspective that WAR is stuck with the "over-glorified DPS" role where it's never the preferred MT?

As a side note. If I have to say something to blame that is the way the raids are designed. There is absolutely no tradeoff in picking Attack stats over Defence stats. All of the tank classes would work just fine if that was true. For example picking STR meant considerably increased your chances of dying or high vitality increased regeneration considerably.
It would even make the tank gameplay richer and strategic. Right not tanks are a subpar dps that exists only because you can't replace it with a dps.

Bad stat design is this game's biggest flaw. But you know why people ignore VIT and Parry? It's because of the tank's defensive CDs! Guess who has the best? Oh right! PLD!

Again, what I am saying is "PLD is fine as it is. As long as it is defensively superior, its DPS should never be upped!"
This is not me saying it shouldn't be changed. I am saying it shouldn't be buffed. If SE decides to give PLD more DPS at the cost of its defenses, I'm more than happy for them, grats!

Anyways, say what you will. I sincerely hope you can provide numbers or videos that prove that PLD is broken. Otherwise this thread is a big waste of time.

[Ivellior]

You assuming I'm a WAR in the first place and adding me to a non-existing "WAR-hive mind" is a total joke.

Really? I find that hard to believe.

Not really, people took PLD to MT and they took "another tank" to OT. The other tank didn't matter as PLD or WAR were fine. Double jobs LB penalty didn't prevent groups from taking double MNKs for the entirety of SCoB and FCoB progression and that "meta" only broke when NIN came out since Trick Attack added more raid DPS than 1 MNK dropping DK in favor of Bootshine.

You also pointed out somewhere in your post that people would take double WAR if it had the defenses of PLD. Well, why aren't they already? Since DPS is everything and all. Again, LB penalty didn't stop people from double monking in SCoB and FCoB.

Just like there are groups that take 2x MNK, there are groups that take 2x WAR. Most people don't take 2x same class for LB and loot consideration.
Also why on earth would you take a PLD (or DRK for that matter) when they do less damage than WAR as OT and they run out of TP in the first half of the battle?

Check this. DRK is 3% behind WAR, PLD is 8% behind WAR.
Yes it's a dummy parse. Yes it's "too perfect" with all these buffs provided. But in a real fight PLD comes closer because of down times (bosses jump and have in-vulnerabilities).

Yes it's too perfect for your narrative, but only for that. Let's see. You have 2 people buffing the DRK and the PLD (slash debuff and TP). Why doesn't the WAR get a slash debuff and has to loose dps to keep it up himself? Why does the WAR suffer the full effect of pacification and you don't have a healer remove the debuff from him?
Why does the video cut off like that? Why doesn't the WAR have enough skill speed to fit 3 combos on one berserk (could be wrong about this one since it's not the tank's pov and you can't see the abilities and rotations used clearly)? As a matter of fact why isn't it a tank PoV so we see and judge their rotations easier?
The video is also ignoring 2 important the facts:
1. Gear optimization for each class. (For example +crit is way more beneficial on WAR than any other classes, plus you need skill speed enough to use 3 full combos in berserk).
2. No enmity generation. This just dps without building any actual enmity, which will never happen in a raid environment. You will have to go to tank stance to build enmity. Guess will build faster and more efficient and can go back to dps stance faster to do more damage.
So you have a video where everything is stacked against the war, while helping the other two tanks as much as you can to get the result you want, and preach it like it's a fact. Talk about being disingenuous. In a real fight the margin will be not be smaller, it will be MUCH wider, especially with a good WAR.

People not going PLD / DRK is just a stupidity thing. It's like why people wouldn't let WAR solo tank T9 or Shiva Ex. In the end there are those that did them.

So basically you are sore because PUGS wanted PLD for solo tank in 2.0 instead of WAR. (You are not a WAR though). Aren't those the same pugs that demanded a WHM for solo healing?
Congratulation. PLD is OP in PUGS where people will probably wont be that good and you will need as much healing power and safety as you can get. I even said that myself in a previous post.

Here are a few reasons why you are wrong:

- Even when planned, Holmgang is not worth using. A WAR stacking any of its CDs with IB will reduce far more damage and require far less healing than a WAR going down to 1HP and then healed back to full. Same can be said about DRK. This is the main reason WARs and DRKs don't "plan" using Holmgang and LD unless they really need to.
- Hallowed Ground can cheese an entire mechanic or render a tank buster irrelevant.
- Most end-game fights are 11 to 15 minutes. You can use HG effectively twice. Planning them WILL make an encounter easier.

Are you mad or you are just trolling? Holmgang is not worth using? Really? All you have to do is be in dps stance, go tank stance right before the tank buster and pop Holmgang. You get hit by the tank buster, pop equilibrium if you're feeling like helping the healers (or ToB or both if you're feeling particularly generous to your healers), wait to get topped up and immediately go to dps stance with extra hp and cooldowns that will help you stay in dps stance longer and use that IB as fell cleave.
You aren't loosing healer dps since they will pretty much have to go healer stance (if they haven't already) to heal you any way. The damage they loose by staying in healing stance a little longer to top you off is negligible compared to the damage the WAR will gain from staying in DPS stance longer by saving the extra cooldowns (and converting that IB to Fell Cleave).

WAR is missing far more than just Hallowed Ground. WAR receives 4% less healing from spells and 20% less from abilities. I'd want that "fixed" before I'd even ask for Hallowed Ground.

If anything, I am sick of Hallowed Ground because for the entirety of ARR, I used to breech at WAR MT PLD OT and the paladins would reply with "Hallowed Ground". Now that it is inconvenient you wish it wasn't there? The joke's on you PLDs. What's even funnier is that PLDs now retort at WARs with "But you have Inner Beast!".

While we are it, let's give WAR an increase to Fell Cleave potency and some healing when he goes to tank stance. After that we can give him hallowed ground so he wont be feeling left out. You are totally not a WAR though.

Efficiency is one thing and people naturally always pick up the most efficient route. But you are ignoring the whole healing efficiency. People dying is an huge raid-wide DPS. But since you want to stick to your misinformed point-of-view I won't "argue" safety.

Yes PLD may not be in the best spot it's been since 2.0, but it is not in a bad spot. It is no where near AST or 2.0 WAR.

WAR is sitting comfortably in the OT spot because PLD and DRK are fighting each other hard for the MT spot. Should I mention how annoying it is from a balance (more like Hive mindset) perspective that WAR is stuck with the "over-glorified DPS" role where it's never the preferred MT?

Oh noes! WAR can MT but they wont let me MT because I do insane damage as OT where the other tanks are picking up their pieces after running out of TP mid fight, while still doing less damage than me even before their TP runs out. Still not a WAR though.
For the record I never said that PLD is as bad as AST but it's not fine either. Also the healing efficiency gained from having a PLD isn't that high because healing efficiency from dps is higher than healing efficiency from defences. You don't need 20 seconds of healing efficiency by having a PLD when you can gain 1 minute of healing efficiency by clearing earlier with more dps.

Bad stat design is this game's biggest flaw. But you know why people ignore VIT and Parry? It's because of the tank's defensive CDs! Guess who has the best? Oh right! PLD!

Maybe PLD is the source of server crashes and network bottlenecks as well? Are you kidding me? VIT and Parry and worthless because the bosses auto attacks do very little damage. You can practically tank those auto attacks in dps stance and not break a sweat. Heck you can even let a dps tank the boss auto-attacks.
The only considerable amount of damage raids have (defence checks) are tank busters and a few in between high powered attacks. If the auto attacks did hefty amounts of damage (let's say 4k per hit on tank stance, random number but you get the point) when VIT would be good, Parry would be great and the tank stance would be mandatory. And guess what? Defences would actually matter!
The problem isn't the PLD (which apparently is the source of all the game's evil, imbalances, treasonous lalafels and server crashes) or the cooldowns as you are saying. The problem is the current meta tanks are not designed to be a defensive character (ie a tank). They are designed to be a subpar dps with lots of dps and cooldowns to survive tank busters.
And guess what, when you are regulated to dps and you do less dps than the other dps do, then you have a problem. If you want people to stop complaining about tank damage then you need to nerf tank damage (all tank damage) to the ground. Problem solved permanently.

Anyways, say what you will. I sincerely hope you can provide numbers or videos that prove that PLD is broken. Otherwise this thread is a big waste of time.

Want some videos?
Here you go, on a real raid, with real conditions like enmity generation and optimized gear, on savage 2 where the tanks usually split half the adds (so they get an equal opportunity time as MT) and the PLD is OP because of his superior defences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooNCi_9VL3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTIatJfImJY

As matter of fact, do a youtube search for any savage raid with a pld and check their damage compared to the other tank.

[Ivellior]

And before people start: OMG You liked a SAV2 video! SAV2 is bad for PLD dps, it's sarcasm.
If are entitled to posting a stacked video against the WAR to prove your point, so can I post as video stacked against PLD to prove my point. At least in my video the stacking is blatantly obvious.
If you want actual videos go look in the other threads, you'll find right below the WAR Hivemind quote "that video doesn't count because the player sucks".

Edit:

And before this post descends into a flame war about videos (since this is not my intention) let me clarify a few things.

First of all, because there are so many parameters involved in this game it's not easy to accurately measure dps for tanks.
There are things like item optimization, enmity generation, mechanics, player skill, latency, how classes interact with each other, you name it.
The only feasible way to accurately measure that would be to create a group of bots that played the fight perfectly, had the most optimized equipment and used the best rotations. And run that group on Savage a few billion times to get the results.
I can't make that and I don't think even SE can make that. If they did, all the classes would ship balanced ready and they would never have to be updated. The only one able to do that is God (or whatever omnipotent being you believe in, if you don't believe in God).

That leaves the following options of how to get an idea of what the actual balance might be like:
1. Take a huge number of battles and compare median dps results. That might work for SE, but we can't really do it, since our only option is youtube where there are only a few videos and even fewer videos with parse.
It also has the inherent problem we are seeing here: "This battle favors WAR because aoe", "This player sucks", "he did that wrong" etc, etc. And for each video you or I can provide that "prove" a point someone can provide another 10 that proves the other point. It's like two people shouting to a wall. Good luck with that.
2. The other way is to take what is probably closer to the bot group described above: And that is the high end raiding players. If someone can come close to the max utilization of classes it's them.
We said that for PLD and you gave the argument: "You are not them, so it doesn't matter".

Or we can cherry pick a video and rage on because why not? (What is happening now).

I still stand by what I said before. The only way to fix this mess it to make defences worth something and turn the tanks into, well actual tanks, and not "beefy" dps that they are now. Or nerf tank damage to the ground.
On SE defence I can understand why they choose this META. They probably did it to make tanks more appealing to players, so that more players will play tanks. Let's not hide behind our finger here, big numbers are popular and that is why there is a metric ton of dps more out there compared to the other classes.
The problem we are suffering is that "beefy" dps is still dps and as long as the damage has big fluctuations (real or perceived) people will complain. Check the dps forum for that.

[Reynhart]

And before people start: OMG You liked a SAV2 video! SAV2 is bad for PLD dps, it's sarcasm.

Actually, why would it be an acceptable answer ?
Why would it be normal for PLD to be so far behind in a heavy AoE fight ?

Maybe our single target DPS is not so bad when compared to WAR or DRK, especially if we have the slashing debuff, and someone to give us TP...but in AoE fights we're just useless when it comes to DPS.
So, I'll stick to one of my idea, change Shield Swipe into War Drum, with adjustment on potency to not be...hmm...overpowered (no pun intended)

A2S is also the typical example where "Just let the WAR MT and the PLD OT" is also not an answer.

Instead he just opens with Heavy Swing and waits until 4 stacks of Abandon to pop Berserk.

Well, if you want to do three Fell Cleave during Berserk, you have to build 4 Abandon before, I don't see the problem here.

[Brian_]

Yes it's too perfect for your narrative, but only for that. Let's see. You have 2 people buffing the DRK and the PLD (slash debuff and TP). Why doesn't the WAR get a slash debuff and has to loose dps to keep it up himself? Why does the WAR suffer the full effect of pacification and you don't have a healer remove the debuff from him?
Why does the video cut off like that? Why doesn't the WAR have enough skill speed to fit 3 combos on one berserk (could be wrong about this one since it's not the tank's pov and you can't see the abilities and rotations used clearly)? As a matter of fact why isn't it a tank PoV so we see and judge their rotations easier?
The video is also ignoring 2 important the facts:
1. Gear optimization for each class. (For example +crit is way more beneficial on WAR than any other classes, plus you need skill speed enough to use 3 full combos in berserk).
2. No enmity generation. This just dps without building any actual enmity, which will never happen in a raid environment. You will have to go to tank stance to build enmity. Guess will build faster and more efficient and can go back to dps stance faster to do more damage.
So you have a video where everything is stacked against the war, while helping the other two tanks as much as you can to get the result you want, and preach it like it's a fact. Talk about being disingenuous. In a real fight the margin will be not be smaller, it will be MUCH wider, especially with a good WAR.

Actually, I do believe that he doesn't play WAR because he didn't even notice that the WAR's opener was just wrong if all you're trying to do is maximize DPS. Either that or he's just being incredibly disingenuous which is probably also the case. The WAR doesn't open with Infuriate and extend it in order to land a Berserked triple FC opener. Instead he just opens with Heavy Swing and waits until 4 stacks of Abandon to pop Berserk.