PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Launched]

I want a balance on dps as MT. Because paladin is really behind on this sector. We have absolutely nothing to remove the damage penalty of Shield oath.
Drk get their double stance war got unchained and Inner beast.

PLD doesn't deserve a single extra point of MT DPS as long as it has built-in passive mitigation and Hallowed Ground. If you want to be the most defensive tank then that's fine, that's your advantage. Your disadvantage is that you do less MT DPS. Deal with that, instead of complaining that a few fights that don't let you block make your entire skillset irrelevant and that you need buffs.

[Croisciento]

Deal with that, instead of complaining that a few fights that don't let you block make your entire skillset irrelevant and that you need buffs.

That's the issue with like 80% of the people on these forums since HW came out. Before the expansion there was only one support role, only two tanks and also only two healers. If you wanted to have an optimal group setup then you'd need to have all of tanks/healers in your group. There wasn't any fight that was "bad" for neither of these jobs because there wasn't any other alternative. With the introduction of new tank/healer jobs people fail to see that SE now made some fights easier/harder for certain classes but that doesn't mean any class needs a buff. This means diversity was introduced and groups now have to choose. If they want an overall better mitigation then they'll loose DPS. If they want to still have tanks doing a lot of DPS then they'll either need to choose beetween magic resistance (A1-A3 and A4 for the bombs) with a better dps while tanking or utility and a good physical mitigation (A2-A3 and A4 MT). No matter which comp you'll choose you'll always get a trade-off.

People are bitching about DPS because early clears rely heavily on that as people do not have a lot of gear, but when each dps will have their weapon and one or two esoteric pieces it'll no longer be a problem unless your DPS are garbage. People think balance is all about being as good as another class no matter which fight they are on. Diversity is having multiple options at your disposal each having their pros and cons.

[Brian_]

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It's not a choice and there are no options. All of what you have said is a fallacy.

It's the same reason why there is no skill tree in this game or why game designers are increasingly wary of providing people false choices. At the end of the day, it's not a choice because people will min-max, calculate an optimal set-up, and stick to that. There will be no variety.

The concept within design is called strictly better. DRK and WAR right now are strictly better than PLD. Now, that wouldn't be the case if PLD provided something meaningful to raid content. The problem is they currently don't.

DRK and WAR provide quantifiable and meaningful DPS increases. DRK, WAR, and PLD all have no issue surviving through incoming damage in Savage so whatever situational survivability advantages PLD has is irrelevant.

Now, if you understood anything about tanking in this game, you would know the current meta and why this type of balance was doomed for failure. The idea has always been -- meet a survivability threshold, full DPS thereafter. Tanks have been hitting an eHP threshold and then stacking DPS stats in order to push their DPS. So now, you have 3 tanks that all can meet that threshold but 2 of them start from a different DPS baseline.

In other words, blatant imbalance.

So, you might say "well, it's just the top progression groups pushing really tight DPS checks."

And...? What people don't understand is unless there is a difference in learning curve, everything scales down proportionately when judging lesser players. A DRK in the hands of an exceptional player will perform exceptionally. A DRK in the hands of a good player will perform good. An exceptional DRK will out DPS a exceptional PLD. A good DRK will still out DPS a good PLD. You cannot balance around different levels of skill. You might say "well since everyone will have more gear, it shouldn't matter." No. Gear effects everyone equally. A DRK with an esoteric weapon will still out DPS a PLD with an esoteric weapon. "But DPS will be better geared now so tank DPS won't be as necessary." So... basically a PLD has to rely on their DPS carrying them to their clears? How is that balanced or acceptable?

[Reynhart]

The idea has always been -- meet a survivability threshold, full DPS thereafter.

Amen

That's why I suggested that PLD would need something to completely change the whole party setup.
PLD having more mitigation and healing so that you could replace one healer by another DPS.

And for DRK...perhaps some debuff were anyone hitting the same target as them could gain either MP or TP, so you could replace a "buffer" by another full DPS.
For example, you could add another effect to Sole Survivor (And increase its duration to 30s) :
For each hit the "Victim" takes, the attacker gains TP. Dark Arts Effect : The attacker gains MP instead of TP.

It would also make the skill interesting when you fight only one boss and help the DRK replenishes some MP when hit by only one target.

And you could have the WAR as the best tank-DPS, but requiring a setup with two healers and probably a BRD/MCH.

Of course, in Duty Finder, every tank would be viable. But when you want to make a real optimized PT, you'd have several setups at your disposal depending on what people wants to play.