Astro in savage

[justinjarjar]

Saw these videos on youtube of this AST Yoshiyuki Ly for those that wanna see.

Floor 1 Savage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkTySAHDI4

Floor 2 Savage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWfPcG43yrA

PS4 gameplay/bars confuse me XD, but thanks for the links .

[AmiraHargal]

I've tried healing savage on both nocturnal/diurnal sect, although being the weak "casual" player that I am, I'm still unable to clear Faust XD, but here is some impression of using AST in savage (note : partner is a WHM, with pretty good skill to cover up my mistake so experience may differ with other AST XD)

- Diurnal Sect is fine, healing wise, but it feel like I overheal a lot with WHM partner whether when I'm stacking regen or we just happen to heat Benefic II/Cure II combo at the same time

- Nocturnal Sect is underwhelming. I really hope they change time dilation and celestial opposition(the AOE stun one) effect under nocturnal sect to enhance RR effect instead of extend effect in diurnal and it also apply to our shield and Luminous MP regen in nocturnal(time dilation is 50% increase in target's shield and buff potency, celestial can be miniscule, like 5% increase in potency to every party member in range). This will basically make us an (ironically) less RNG dependent shielder than SCH yet still weaker as not to replace it completely(because only 50% increase in shield power instead of SCH 100% increase on crit)

- I feel that during healing intensive part of Faust(when you're close to wiping due to time up), I don't have time to draw card or buff people while healing the tank because of the animation lock while doing a draw. If I press heal while my AST just start to do her draw animation, the draw ability will be cancelled and my AST start channeling the heal instead of just the animation cancelling and the card is still drawn. It's also probably partially due to lag on my side(around 200ms ping), but I wish dev team would remove the small window of animation lock where draw cast can be cancelled if you start to cast another spell at the start of the draw animation.

[Staris]

Insert Bad Math Here

First off its not 33 33 33 on Royal roads, because you can use half them instead of roading, and you can shuffle.
Plus its far more complicated than that, Ewar can reduce mana song need and thus increase bard damage, TP card can increase damage of certain classes, even more so for aoe.

Second fey wind / arrow have variable benefits based on the the % of damage coming from dots vs a base attack. Meaning a summoner benefits more from damage buff than an attack speed buff.
also the timing of the buffs can be huge, buffing a summoner during dreadworm trance for dots he can bane or double dot can outweigh doing so on multiple people conserving TP.

Also its all moot, because you can have an astro and a sch.

[SuzakuCMX]

First off its not 33 33 33 on Royal roads, because you can use half them instead of roading.

It's still 33% chance of getting any one RR effect

and you can shuffle.

Which, since it doesn't remove your current card from the pool, still gives you a 1/6 chance of drawing any one card and therefore keeps probability (33% RR) exactly the same.

Plus its far more complicated than that, Ewar can reduce mana song need and thus increase bard damage, TP card can increase damage of certain classes, even more so for aoe.

But they won't match the 10% DPS increase from Balance.

Second fey wind / arrow have variable benefits based on the the % of damage coming from dots vs a base attack.

No they don't. You still have to cast the DoT which is unaffected by either Arrow or Fey Wind, and you will not be auto-attacking on SMN, the biggest DoT user in the game, unless you are spamming the hell out of Ruin II for some reason.

Meaning a summoner benefits more from damage buff than an attack speed buff.

Everyone benefits more from Balance than from Arrow, because they are similar values (10% vs 15%) but one is a direct increase and the other.....is a 15% ASPD increase which really doesn't increase DPS by a whole lot for the same duration.

also the timing of the buffs can be huge, buffing a summoner during dreadworm trance for dots he can bane or double dot

Yes, the timing of that RNG card you get....

can outweigh doing so on multiple people conserving TP.

You realize the SMN has to be doing double the DPS of every person hit by Balance combined in those 15 seconds to be able to outweigh the benefit of an AoE'd Balance, right?

[Ghishlain]

First off its not 33 33 33 on Royal roads, because you can use half them instead of roading, and you can shuffle.
Plus its far more complicated than that, Ewar can reduce mana song need and thus increase bard damage, TP card can increase damage of certain classes, even more so for aoe.

Second fey wind / arrow have variable benefits based on the the % of damage coming from dots vs a base attack. Meaning a summoner benefits more from damage buff than an attack speed buff.
also the timing of the buffs can be huge, buffing a summoner during dreadworm trance for dots he can bane or double dot can outweigh doing so on multiple people conserving TP.

Also its all moot, because you can have an astro and a sch.

So, please explain to me how my "math is bad" because I feel like I've explained myself well for the model I was trying to achieve. I'll be a bit more explicit here.

1) My model was based purely on the assumption that you're aiming for "pure and direct attack buffs". This means aiming to maximize Arrow and Balance usage as the values are generally quantifiable (less so Arrow versus Balance). This also means you're going with the assumption that the content "is on farm" and you don't need additional resources to maintain raid resource health. This also means 4/6 cards are useless in this simulation and you're aiming for Expand more often than naught because Expand + power buff is generally the highest damage increase possible to your raid DPS.
2) The reason why Extend is 50% and Enhance is 16.7% is because if you're using my model, you don't RR Balance, you use it because Extend > Enhance due to overall up time. Since using Balance is the equivalent of having Extended Balance, you bump the probability of getting "extend" from 1/3 to 1/2 and reduce enhance from 1/3 to 1/6. Since Arrow is Extend as well, using Arrow is equal to using Extend Arrow in this case too.

With that being said:

Plus its far more complicated than that

Of course it is. As I've stated in the post you quoted.

TLDR: Lots of variables to consider, what's above is only a simple model of "balancing" AST DPS to other healer DPS that is no where near complete.

So, let's consider more variables.

1) As several posters have stated on these forums (yourself included), Arrow is less beneficial for DoT classes and more beneficial for high attack speed classes. Arrow (especially Enhanced Arrow) is amazing for MNKs and NINs and lack luster for most other classes. The assumption that 10% Haste = 10% more DPS is a terrible assumption but suits the purpose of "poorly quantifying haste" at this juncture.
2) Arrow has the opportunity to give a small DPS boost to classes that rely heavily on oGCD abilities and buffs for their damage. Jumps from DRGs, Reloads from MCNs, and ninjutsu from NINs come to mind. This value is difficult to quantify in the middle of a fight because you may not be quite sure what buffs these jobs may be popping at what interval - but you can make a simple assumption that with a 20 second Spear, you'll probably get at least Jump, Quick Reload, and Ninjutsu Spearing these individuals.
3) Bole provides an indirect benefit of reducing required HPS for the duration of the buff. This potentially allows your healer more uptime on their own DPS. Again, this value is difficult to quantify because it may or may not allow the healer to actually DPS. What we do know is that it will increase the amount of resources the healers will have available as they don't need to keep their foot as hard onto the healer gas pedal as required.
4) As you've rightfully stated, Ewer and Spire can both reduce the need for BRDs to sing and thus keep their DPS normal. Likewise, Spire can assist your physical DPS class after they've had to hit a group of adds + boss with AoEs and thus allow them to continue going ham. Spire is also good after raising a dead physical DPS and also good for your PLD who has no TP regeneration tools compared to all the other DPS and WARs who have Invigorate / Equilibrium. Again, this value isn't easily quantifiable.
5) Spread gives you the ability to stack probability more in your favour so you can have the right buffs at the right time. Again, this value has no quantifiable value but can prove to increase raid resource health or DPS dramatically when played properly.

While I appreciate your contribution to questions earlier in the thread to how you used AST in your Savage group to clear A1S, please don't just waltz right in here and claim my math "is bad". It's just incomplete because there are many variables to the AST card buffs that is difficult to quantify due to the nature of the buffs.

[MistralLevante]

While I appreciate your contribution to questions earlier in the thread to how you used AST in your Savage group to clear A1S, please don't just waltz right in here and claim my math "is bad". It's just incomplete because there are many variables to the AST card buffs that is difficult to quantify due to the nature of the buffs.

So, why do I see you ripping on a guy for using incomplete math and forgetting variables a few pages back?

I appreciate the thorough nature of your analysis, but I still have not seen you apologize for treating that man so poorly over something as trivial as forgetting to divide by 2.

[Ghishlain]

So, why do I see you ripping on a guy for using incomplete math and forgetting variables a few pages back?

I appreciate the thorough nature of your analysis, but I still have not seen you apologize for treating that man so poorly over something as trivial as forgetting to divide by 2.

I knew this was going to come up from you. =p And yes, I can appreciate the irony of the comment itself.

I will say this first - I made a post that apologized to him directly after he commented to me about how I was the most aggressively agreeable person he's ever met. I absolutely loved that particular comment. My intent wasn't to offend him, but yes, my wording was exceptionally poor, so I do apologize for that.

With that being said, I'm not sure why that particular post was pruned (and with that post, my subsequent response). So, I'll just repeat it here and offer my advice.

Richard should refrain from using math in his arguments because it undermines the credibility of his work and I know how hard he's been working towards getting AST changes done. At one point in time he made this comment to me:

You're right to correct me, but I'm dumbing it down in order to demonstrate that an 11% buff to one player isn't an 11% buff to the entire raid, because otherwise someone will see 11% and 1.5% and jump to conclusions.

My goal is to prevent people from jumping to conclusions based on incorrect information. If you consider his comment where he did forget to divide by 2.

The 10% chance at boosting DPS for 15 seconds comes at the cost of a 1 in 6 chance to get that ability, which averages out to a 1.67% DPS boost on one player per minute. It would have to be closer to a 40-60% DPS increase for 15 seconds to actually be worth anything, but as you said, people would cry OP because they don't understand how statistics work...

Then some players may jump to the incorrect conclusion that indeed the boost should be 40-60% while if you look at my extremely flawed and simple model, a change to Balance / Arrow to 26% may be better. To me, his comment was less about the fact he forgot to divide 2 by and more of the fact that he went from 1.67% DPS increase to needing a 40-60% boost.

This isn't the first post Richard has tried to put math down on the table, but the posts I've seen where he has tried to use math to his advantage have been incorrect and I don't want others to use that as a means of "Nah, you don't know what you're talking about" and discredit everything he had because I do like some of the ideas he's posted and I want to make sure he's covering his bases.

========

Now with that out of the way, I'm not trying to make any claim with how to balance AST buffs in my dialogue, at least not directly. I'm just trying to put together a sample model that some players can use and analyze to see how they may change the card system to better suit how an AST operates. There are MANY variables to consider with AST buffs and there is no real way to model all these variables together as they are all a function of the people you are playing with and thus mostly outside of the healer's control (moreso than WHM or SCH).

[MistralLevante]

I knew this was going to come up from you. =p And yes, I can appreciate the irony of the comment itself.

I will say this first - I made a post that apologized to him directly after he commented to me about how I was the most aggressively agreeable person he's ever met. I absolutely loved that particular comment. My intent wasn't to offend him, but yes, my wording was exceptionally poor, so I do apologize for that.

Fair enough. I think I understand where you are coming from. I think you may be one of those people who gets caught up in trying to provide helpful information that often polite word choice gets forgotten. I'm guilty of the same sometimes.

Sorry for calling you out in such a way. I hate seeing people use their knowledge to make others feel inferior, and I originally and incorrectly had you pegged as someone who did that.


Back on topic people!

[Richiealvian]

Just cleared A2, and I have to say it really changed my mind on Noct.
It's crazy big, I think it's like having bigger cure2s but still having cards!

As gear scales, I think it'll be very decent. I went sch/ast, but we had no problems with double shield..

Gotta thank that other AST video, the dps soaking vuln up stacks really gave us ideas.

[SuzakuCMX]

Just cleared A2, and I have to say it really changed my mind on Noct.
It's crazy big, I think it's like having bigger cure2s but still having cards!

Yes, I've also realized the 5% potency buff in Noct is actually huge for the healing on Benefic/Benefic II I prefer to use Noct in dungeons on my AST because of the easier (AKA Quicker) healing up from low HP.