Astrologian buffs confirmed

[RichardButte]

It is. I'm just trying to indicate to you that by increasing everyone's DPS by 1.5% does NOT increase the raid DPS by 12% like you have incorrectly stated. It only increases raid DPS by 1.5%.

If you're going to try to argue math, please at least use the right terminology and methodology ^^;

You're right to correct me, but I'm dumbing it down in order to demonstrate that an 11% buff to one player isn't an 11% buff to the entire raid, because otherwise someone will see 11% and 1.5% and jump to conclusions.

A 1.5% increase to all players is the same value as a 12% increase to one person (assuming everyone is DPSing at the time), except that, as was mentioned by a DRG earlier, DPS don't want haste because it just makes them burn through their TP faster (maybe BLMs do, but I've heard that they have a pretty strict rhythm as to how and when they want to cast everything).

The damage increase of Balance is superior because it does 10% more damage flat out without speeding the consumption of resources.

I just really don't want anyone popping up and saying, "Wait, so this means AST is good after all and doesn't need buffs?! Yay!"

Synastry is a realistic 50% healing increase on 2 tank fights (almost all of them) making it one of the best healing cds currently in the game.
Considering the amount of overhealing for whitemage, healing 5 % faster for 5 % less is a buff.
MP is only an issue for bad healers of any class (and has been since 2.0).

We are clearly not a SCH replacement, hell 2 SCH might be ideal for many fights. But easily a better whm for any real progression.

If you can't see that your not even in the game.

What can be said in response to this except...

[Leiloni]

Here's a question I have yet to see answered. Why is everyone saying that Selene increases dps by 1.5%? A 3% attack speed buff that has 50% uptime does not mean a direct 1.5%. Selene isn't a flat dps boost anymore than Arrow is. Honestly it's probably less than that.

And again, I know SCH offers better dps and I really think AST needs changes. None of that is the issue here. Why do people keep throwing around all these numbers?

And as a side note, the idea that both SCH and AST buffs amount to realistically so little is pretty sad. I love the idea of support healers, but I want them to really have a noticeable effect. You shouldn't have to do math to realize that you're getting more from a SCH than a WHM when you don't need the power healing. :\ The various supportive skills on both healers should have a more obvious impact during battle.

[RichardButte]

Here's a question I have yet to see answered. Why is everyone saying that Selene increases dps by 1.5%? A 3% attack speed buff that has 50% uptime does not mean a direct 1.5%.

Well, unless someone wants to math out every possible scenario for every class, we're not going to have the real numbers, but 1.5% speed increase means everything happens 1.5% faster, for whatever it's worth.

And we say 1.5% because that's what it averages out to all the time because, again, trying to calculate the actual numbers in every situation would be the kind of work most people get PAID to do.

All we can say for sure is that AST's average chance of bringing more DPS to the party (given the probability of drawing a card that will do so) is on par with or lower than Selene's buff, and that needs to be fixed, since AST doesn't bring anywhere near the same emergency options to the party that a SCH does.

Really, I just want AST to have something that warrants bringing it, and that can be buffed cards or some better emergency options or something else unique that makes it an actual decision for progression groups. I want to main AST (I have both it and SCH at 60 now), but I feel like I'm hurting my group by bringing an AST over SCH.

[Sidra]

1.5% speed, though is much less than 1.5% actual damage. Probably under 1%. It doesn't improve dot damage, and it doesn't improve oGCD damage (Fester, Deathflare, Sidewinder, DRG Jumps etc..). It's job specific with some jobs getting more of a benefit than others, but still dots and ogcd acount for a large portion of damage. Balance is grossly superior.

I am under the impression that people are vastly underestimating the amount of party DPS an AST brings in it's current form to extended duration (8 player raid) battles.

Balance, even a few times over the course of a battle, with various extended duration buffs - is very good. And you can choose the best DPS, and also potentially an ideal time in their rotation or boss phase. Ewer, Spire, Bole (reduces MP use via less healing) all help save resources, which means less DPS loss from Ballad/Paeon - or even the potential to forego the support slot entirely for a stronger DPS. And depending on Spear's usage, it can add additional DPS or save more resources.

The problem is it's basically impossible to put a number on it, but I really feel this to be true. Some of DPS benefits are indirect as opposed to direct, but they are there.

[GideonHighmourn]

I am under the impression that people are vastly underestimating the amount of party DPS an AST brings in it's current form to extended duration (8 player raid) battles.

And I believe several people are vastly overestimating it. RNG aside, even if drawn every single time, Balance only adds 5% DPS to a single person since it has a 50% up time (at most, discounting RNG). So, if someone was doing 900 DPS, you'll have added 45DPS over the entire fight. This is just a rough estimate, based on the best DPS buff available to AST, and discounts any sort of RNG on the effect. In reality, it's average is far, far lower than that, since you only have a 1 in 6 chance to draw the card. RR's expanded/extended effect can't really effect that amount very much, even if used every single time, because you will be forfeiting a draw in order to do so, reducing the up time on the Balance buff.

I use Balance as an example because it is the most easily calculated DPS increase from AST; the others likely still add the overall DPS, but not nearly as much as Balance will. So, it's a best case scenario for AST, and even then it's far far less useful than people claim it is, especially considering they give up so much in healing/cooldowns to provide it.

[Ghishlain]

You're right to correct me, but I'm dumbing it down in order to demonstrate that an 11% buff to one player isn't an 11% buff to the entire raid, because otherwise someone will see 11% and 1.5% and jump to conclusions.

A 1.5% increase to all players is the same value as a 12% increase to one person (assuming everyone is DPSing at the time), except that, as was mentioned by a DRG earlier, DPS don't want haste because it just makes them burn through their TP faster (maybe BLMs do, but I've heard that they have a pretty strict rhythm as to how and when they want to cast everything).

The damage increase of Balance is superior because it does 10% more damage flat out without speeding the consumption of resources.

I just really don't want anyone popping up and saying, "Wait, so this means AST is good after all and doesn't need buffs?! Yay!"

Unfortunately, you "dumbing it down" is still stating the incorrect information. Your fault is that you're assuming everyone in the raid DPS' at the same level.

Let's say this is the DPS breakdown:

DPS #1 - 1,000 DPS
DPS #2 - 900 DPS
DPS #3 - 800 DPS
DPS #4 - 600 DPS
Tank #1 - 400 DPS
Tank #2 - 350 DPS
Healers - 0 DPS

Raid DPS is now 4,050 DPS. A 1.5% increase to DPS results in an increase of 60.75 DPS which then translates into 4,110.75 DPS.

Now, if we use your example that we increase the power of a single DPS by 12% and increase DPS #1 by 12% they're doing an additional 120 DPS and bringing up the raid DPS to 4,170.

Ergo, 1.5% DPS increase for the raid =/= 12% DPS increase for a single player.

I hate to be "that guy who nitpicks" but if you're going to argue balancing, it's very important you have a clear understanding of how specific mechanics and functions work and how they interact with each other so you can properly judge what is actually deficient and how to fix it.

Take Fey Wind for example. Selene provides a 1.5% raid wide buff. AST buffs SHOULD provide a higher potency buff to the raid for the trade off that you can't call on a whim. The fact that Expand Balance only provides a 1.25% raid wide buff and the chances of you actually drawing said combination is a 5.56%/min is terrible (if you have Shuffle available at the time of the Draw, you increase your probability to 10.19%/min). This is of course assuming you don't Spread a Balance earlier in the fight and work towards getting a RR'd card for Expand, which one its own right can be quite frustrating given RNG.

Likewise, take Balance. It's a 10% increase for 15 seconds. Say you get two Balances in a row or RR an Extend for a total 10% increase for 30 seconds (or a 5% increase every minute). Even with this luck and the above party example, the #1 DPS would only be increasing their DPS by 50, which still wouldn't match the power Fey Wind grants to the raid.

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Also, at the risk getting hated - I'm going to play devil's advocate. What Staris says is true if you make educated assumptions based on previous raid design and current raiding with Normal Alexander.

If you assume the following
-Heavy accuracy checks in savage in vein of how they were for BCoB
-Low HPS checks
-High HP checks (this is different from HPS checks)
-High DPS checks

Despite AST's lackluster toolkit, they bring more answers to the above assumptions than WHM would. If the combined HPS of an AST and SCH can overcome the necessary HPS check with neither of them running out of steam and WHM can contribute 0 DPS due to accuracy issues, then you're going to bring a AST who at least has two DoTs that are 100% accurate and party buffs that, despite their RNG nature, will at least do SOMETHING compared to hoping your Aero / Aero II / Aero III / Stone III actually connects.

I will also add this - the above also hinges that the accuracy check is as heavy as Staris' implies and the hinges on AST having the longevity to survive these encounters. If neither of these can be met, a WHM will be a better choice versus an AST.

Without knowing the exact meta S-E intends to do, it'll be hard to judge what will be the best "composition" though. Still, I can't fault Staris' logic when you think it through.

1.5% speed, though is much less than 1.5% actual damage. Probably under 1%. It doesn't improve dot damage, and it doesn't improve oGCD damage (Fester, Deathflare, Sidewinder, DRG Jumps etc..). It's job specific with some jobs getting more of a benefit than others, but still dots and ogcd acount for a large portion of damage. Balance is grossly superior.

I forgot to take into account that oGCDs aren't affected by Haste too, so yeah, Fey Wind generally is less potent than 1.5% due to the amount of oGCDs specific classes would like to weave. Fey Wind and Arrow are absolutely pitiful for SMN compared to other DPS due to the amount of DoTs and oGCDs they have. Does Fey Wind affect the pet? If not, that's even less potent for SMN due to pet's not being affected.

[Parawill]

I remember this one time in Ravana EX where I kept getting Balances and Spires and just threw them all onto my Black Mage for a total string of 2 minutes worth of Balance. Then I never saw a balance until three runs later. RNG is a mysterious thing.

<I'll reply to Staris in a bit. I need to work at work and not be so excited for FFXIV ;_; inc wall of text?>
EDIT: I wish I could math as well as you all could '-'

[Leiloni]

1.5% speed, though is much less than 1.5% actual damage. Probably under 1%. It doesn't improve dot damage, and it doesn't improve oGCD damage (Fester, Deathflare, Sidewinder, DRG Jumps etc..). It's job specific with some jobs getting more of a benefit than others, but still dots and ogcd acount for a large portion of damage.

This is the point I was trying to get at as well. We need to stop using this 1.5% number for the SCH because it's as useless and unreliable as any numbers you come up with for the AST. You do not know that the average would be 1.5% unless you actually do more math than 3/2=1.5 (herp derp look I'm a math wiz guys). All you can really say with that is that the group gets an overall 1.5% speed increase which is so obvious it's not even worth bringing up.

EDIT: I wish I could math as well as you all could '-'

This is exactly why posting numbers like these is bad. Because people pop in and take them as gospel without bothering to read or think about what they mean.

[Ghishlain]

This is the point I was trying to get at as well. We need to stop using this 1.5% number for the SCH because it's as useless and unreliable as any numbers you come up with for the AST. You do not know that the average would be 1.5% unless you actually do more math than 3/2=1.5 (herp derp look I'm a math wiz guys). All you can really say with that is that the group gets an overall 1.5% speed increase which is so obvious it's not even worth bringing up.

This is a very good point for the discussion.

It IS possible to get a range of averages Fey Wind can contribute to a group based on optimal rotations each class uses in their DPS, but that's an extremely time consuming and thought out process and there will be plenty of disagreements due to everyone's opinion.

Sidra made a good point that it most certainly isn't 1.5% due to oGCDs and DoTs, etc. Would it be greater than 1%? Who's to say as well. However, Fey Wind provides the easiest and most straight forward "baseline" to compare other buffs to due to how easy it is. 3% haste for 30 seconds on one minute cool down means you're getting 1.5% haste every minute on average.

We then discussion (argue like mad children?) from there.

[Nihility]

pretty sure the only reason people compare astro to fey wind is because both astro buffs and fey wind are 50% uptime
but fey wind is always aoe and it's always reliable

just compare whole kits though and it becomes pretty obvious astro is way behind the curve