The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Noira]

Well War would LOL but that's because our inner beast and fell cleave crits :3

[Odowla]

I will. ( ' - ' )b

>maim class marauder

FELL CLEAVE CRITS

checks out here

[Panasync]

You guys really need to stop comparing...

Being part of a damage rotation doesn't somehow preclude them from being supportive effects. The fact Ballad isn't tied to a damage ability literally means nothing, the abilities are either supportive or they're not regardless of how they're applied.

Just because you get no use from a buff/debuff ability/spell from your job doesn't somehow negate it's a support ability either. Bard literally gets nothing out of Foe's, much like Ninja gets nothing out of Goad. Is Foe not a supportive ability now? Most of you people arguing aren't even thinking through your arguments, you're just throwing everything and anything hoping something will stick.

There are numerous ways to curb job stacking in a more healthy manner than mutilating the capabilities of jobs because you refuse to put a support role into the game. We already saw an answer to this back in 2.1.

[AxelDH]

The support offered by Bards has traditionally been much more 'instrumental' (heh) to the raid than the support abilities offered by any other DPS class. Disembowel, Dragon Kick, Goad, Trick Attack, Battle Res/Virus from Summoners, Apocatastasis, and so on... these were all nice to have, but none were specifically required to progress from T1-13. However, I would say that pretty much every group had to take a Bard along. Until people got over geared for each floor, Ballad and Paeon were mandatory.

Merely having such powerful support options available is reason enough for BRDs and MCHs to be weaker than the dedicated DPS classes. If they could do the same DPS as a BLM by default, but offer much more support when its called for, then why bring a BLM?

When Alex Savage comes out, I think its safe to say that TP & MP regen will be necessary again, and every raid group will want to bring a Bard or Machinist along.

[Panasync]

Merely having such powerful support options available is reason enough for BRDs and MCHs to be weaker than the dedicated DPS classes. If they could do the same DPS as a BLM by default, but offer much more support when its called for, then why bring a BLM?

I answered this above, but again, there are ways to curb this as to not neuter jobs. I mean you could flat-out not allow job stacking at all, or simply don't let BRD's stack (hell you could alter the way the songs work altogether and make them a % less useful depending on how many bards you have, why stack BRD for songs when they are only doing 3% of what they would do before you stacked the job?), you could remove the LB altogether if you stack, there are plenty of things that you can do. There is too much synergy between jobs to ever have more than 2 as it is, and we already stack 2 jobs when we're met with early DPS checks, do we neuter MNKS because people were stacking them for progression in SCoB and FCoB?

[Ryaz]

The only problem I have is that the only real "supportive" buff that separates BRD/MCH from melee is the TP/MP regen. At least with MCH (not sure what else BRD has). Yes, we also have very small damage reducing ability on a long cooldown which I've made use of only a couple times-- to protect from Cascade in A3 and the tank buster in A4, which I didn't even really need. I get more use out of Leg Graze on the adds during A3.

Other than that, we have is a vulnerability debuff which we use more for ourselves (like melee buffs!) that Ninja's also have. Trick Attack is far superior to Hypercharge with Rook. Ninjas also have Goad and a couple different enmity control techniques, plus 10% increased slashing damage debuff.

We lose damage to put up the TP/MP regen as it is. Not sure why we should be punished even further for it.

But I will say I don't think MCH itself is in bad shape right now. I could just be playing with a lot of bad players, but my damage has been competitive.

[Noira]

Uh I did think about what I said I was responding to the "why aren't melee nerfed"

Because again it is part of their damage rotation, the hell would be the point of using the abilities if it just nerfs your damage on top of boosting it ?

No you cannot make the same argument for Bard because disembowel and dragon kick do DAMAGE on top of buffing their damage. It is a dps ability that side effect has support.

Bard benefits from it's own TP regen song . The fact you tried to use Foe's Req that increases mage damage as opposed to a support ability that regens only the target is hilarious. I'm comparing Army's Paeon to Goad btw. Not a damage increasing ability (which ninja has btw but again part of their damage rotation on top of having a decent potency).

Difference is Bard's abilities are raid passive in their support and because they are passive the bard takes a hit.

Goad is a single target support ability.

Had you used Shadwalker you would have had a slight point, only shadewalker is too situational at this point.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

If you're not singing in dungeons during speed runs, you're doing it wrong.

Bard + Drg + Warrior = Sing Paeon so they can spam AoE (Doom Spike / Overpower)
Bard + Blm + Smn/blm = Sing Foe's
Bard + Sexy DPS Whm = Sing Ballad for Holy spam.

@op should Brd/Mch do less damage than other dps? Sure. Should they do 20% less? No.

p.s. cleared Ravana Ex today with 2 Machinists. I don't know what that means.

[Minorinz]

I just want to say, bard's utility is needed during progression like no other dps class, so even if they did the same or less damage than a tank. I mean it will be obvious during savage, if you can find one party than won't bring a bard or a mch for any of the clears then I am 100% sure SE will do something about it. Also, they already received a buff for their stationary stance so it's normal that when they are mobile they will do less damage. If anything, they should add more utility management on what they have already to make them even more desirable.

[Bishop81]

You guys trying to turn the game into WoW or something?

This game has 4 roles, tank, heal, damage, and support. You want to reduce it to just tank, heal, and damage?

If they buff support's DPS, they have to give damage more support abilities so they get brought along - i.e. support and damage are now one and the same thing.

Seriously, Blizzard listened to players like you. Results? Homogenized classes where everyone is nearly almost the same.

Ghostcrawler said it best,

At some point we as a community started worrying about an individual's "right" to high DPS rather than the DPS of the entire raid. (OccupyGStreet)
Rather than "Did we beat the boss?" it became "Did I beat my warlock friend?" (OccupyGStreet)