Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

[Lillia]

Be as patronizing all you want, honeymuffins, but you haven't really countered my claims with anything but "Oh, well someone else can do it. Not as well as you, but they can." and I'm waiting for reasoning why it's better for them to do it than us.

Except I was editing to pass post limit.

[Intellion]

songs. bam meaning to bards.

mobility is something you specifically want.

you can still deal damage without moving. blm's do it just fine. you can too.

stop pretending you have to run around 90% of the fight. if you had to blms would be kicked from raids.



congrats going to t13 in full bis lets you do the fight easily.



awww thanks for the recognition <3

but seriously i am a troll because bards lose something that is only important to bards that only play the job for mobility?

You're... not even reading my posts, are you?

Yeah, should've known. Sigh.

Moving on.

[Musashidon]

Doesn't deny they did it. Maybe you just need to look to yourself then if all they needed to do was go full BiS.

the exception doesn't make the rule.

You're... not even reading my posts, are you?

Yeah, should've known. Sigh.

Moving on.

well see in the end the discussion has changed from. songs are only secondary to, ok songs are only secondary to me because i play the job for mobility.

taking that away does nothing to the actual job, only to you who plays it for that reason.

[Temjiu]

On note of the subject...I don't mind the concept of WM and how its supposed to buff our damage, but It's simply horribly implemented. Trying to attach it to our Songs is bad idea, as the song mechanic is outdated and clunky IMO. it works as it is mostly because it's a non-essential aspect of our personal play. we trigger a song on request, and go back to doing damage. but making our job depend on adding a song with a huge cast time in our rotation is horribad. There's lots of different ways they could have done it, and for some reason they chose the worst.


It would be one thing if it actually buffed our DPS to levels of other DPS classes. at THAT point we could say, "OK, turning it on sucks, but i can keep up with a BLM, so im good with it. i can turn off and move and still do some damage if i want too." but instead, we have clunky mechanic with cast time to initiate, that gives us the DPS of a tank. exciting. I'd rather keep it off, keep my movement, and still have the DPS of a tank.

On the flip side, they are planning on boosting our damage from what I hear. Not sure how i will take it even if the damage is buffed...again, like many others, if i wanted to play a caster class, I would have rolled a BLM. There's a reason that my BLM is lvl 25, and my archer was my main in 2.x ... the same reason that they killed with WM.

Id almost prefer a trigger stance like Conjurers have. give us a 10% damage boost or something basic, you can lock the new damage skills behind it, and you can do something like, "in Battle stance Bard may not perform songs as his harp is put away!" or something like that. so if we want to buff the party and do stuff like that, we drop the stance, and lose our big hitters and the 10% buff. simple and easy. we get damage, but we lose our buff ability to do it.

Meh...now that I think about that, it's not much different from the songs themselves (damage debuff while they're active). perhaps they should just get rid of the song altogether, and just make our new skills have cast times, and label them as "sniper skills" or something like that. or make the stance buff a damage increase as long as were standing still. either of those stay with the mobile concept, allow us increased damage but at the cost of extra mobility during those high damage periods.

In another post someone had mentioned having a stance that increased your damage when standing still in a tiered method...for each time frame you were standing still, you got X% buff in damage. the second you move, you lost it. that would give us a reason to stand still, but the more movement we had, the less damage we'd do. and we couldn't just stand still for a second and get max damage...the buff would have to stack 4-5x for maximum bonus, so you'd need to be still for at least that many cycles.

As an example, if the cycle was a second, you'd have to stay still for 5 seconds to get the full buff. or perhaps 1.5 seconds, and 7.5 seconds for full buff. the cycle time depends on whats reasonable given boss mechanics in most runs. That would also open up an option for them to add a skill on a longer CD that would immediately give us a full stack, so once every minute or so we could drop full burst without having to pick our nose for 5-7 seconds first.

This would give us the damage boost, limit it if we have to move (similar to cast times), and keep the theme of the bard/ranger/sniper thingy (stand still for higher damage, but be mobile with lower damage). adding it as a stance makes it a trigger we have to think about outside our standard buff cycles, and locking the new skills behind it would assure that we are only going to do the high levels of damage when we are using our mobility "limiting" stance.

[Lewtskie]

the exception doesn't make the rule.

How far is this really an exception? Gear farming is a natural part of the game, is it not? It's not as if they went above and beyond according to you. Most solid FCs have high rank crafters than can provide the crafted parts, running older turns for the gear is normal for many statics, and anything that might be tomes based is just as easily farmed doing dailies.

[Lillia]

snip

Honestly, I'm not against it actually showing a bigger increase when we're in wanderer's or it not even being a song. I'm against these posters who are talking like they want to do more DPS to reach up to other DPS'ers period when they have so many benefits to the job as it is.

Acting like this is something permanent like if we can't take wanderer's off at all and forever losing movement then also giving off the expression of us being taken to content mainly because we can move is ridiculous.

It's convenient that we can move and DPS for raids or big content yes, but that's not the main reason we're looked for since other jobs as I said can move and do the same thing while having a job with bigger DPS fill in for their loss.

[Eirwen]

That some bards choose to run around while shooting is their own preference. I like to stand still and only move when required while keeping my distance. WM would be great if they tweaked it better, like removing that "cast".
We know our songs are benificial to the rest of the party and it's all situational which songs we use when, the TP song being tougher to guess when to use, but not impossible.

Both mobility and our songs are trump cards for Bards. But the biggest trump card is how to handle both. If you're worried about one of the songs lowering your DPS by 15%, then hit Raging Strikes and get that 15% back with an additional 5% extra.

EDIT:
Out of curiosity I opened Google Sheets and calculated if WM does give us a loss in DPS. Do take these stats with a grain of salt, as I used some simple numbers instead my actual DPS.


Surprisingly Wanderer's Minuet DOES do 20% more damage. I'm going to test this out in my FC's backyard later.
Going by these numbers, if you think you did great on Bard pre-3.0 then you get about 10 seconds to dodge stuff per minute whilst in WM to not let your DPS suffer too much in comparison on how strong you were before and instead have only wasted WM for that moment.

[Temjiu]

Honestly, I'm not against it actually showing a bigger increase when we're in wanderer's or it not even being a song. I'm against these posters who are talking like they want to do more DPS to reach up to other DPS'ers period when they have so many benefits to the job as it is.

Acting like this is something permanent like if we can't take wanderer's off at all and forever losing movement then also giving off the expression of us being taken to content mainly because we can move is ridiculous.

It's convenient that we can move and DPS for raids or big content yes, but that's not the main reason we're looked for since other jobs as I said can move and do the same thing while having a job with bigger DPS fill in for their loss.

I think that's the catch. This wasn't a huge issue in 2.x because our damage was good, but not as high as other DPS. but it was high enough to validate us coming, in addition to our buffs. as of now, with other classes getting buff abilities, and tanks doing as much damage as we are now...it really calls into question the BRD role, which is probably why people are arguing the point. I haven't been around ffxiv long enough to know if these same arguments were around back before BRD's did decent damage, but I wouldn't be surprised. balance is always a tough issue when a class is perceived as having support functionality outside their primary role (which in this case is DPS). the 2.x solution seemed to work, perhaps if they got back to that people would be a bit more happy.

Again, goes back to damage. Honestly, if i can pump out the damage of other DPS classes with these changes, IM OK with that. If they eliminate the "casting" requirements, but lower our dps to a "Viable but slightly under the other DPS" classes im fine with that too. but both? not justifiable given the current status of other classes. if we have to play a BLM to get DPS, then i want the DPS of a BLM. or Scholar. anything lower is unacceptable, as we aren't being a BRD at that point. were BLM with the option of turning off our DPS to give people songs (that are rarely needed nowadays).

On the note of the song: IM Ok if it feels like it fits into the continuum. Even though I dont' play BLM (im one of those guys that played BRD because i like the mobility and no cast times), when I DO play my lvl 25 BLM, it feels smooth...the class was designed around cast timers, and rotations involve that. having this 3 sec song as part of a regular rotation really feels clunky. at the least, i'd like to get that removed.

[Edellis]

Fix bard in a realistic way? Change Minuet damage increase to 30%. Done.

No clue about MCH, but the same thing would probably work.

[Lillia]

snip

Unfortunately I don't think that'll be enough to convince people as the argument tossed at those calculations will then be how it's a perfect situation and not one you move around or have to dodge in.

snip.

If only everyone was this reasonable and easy to exchange thoughts with but I agree completely, WM does need fixes and I do think that this is one of the main problems right now. If you take a moment to look as I was trying to point out before, we don't really have any new rotation or buffs right now except the ones we've always been using, it's hard to make an actual complain on whether we do or don't do better damage with the current WM that we have now because of how clunky it is when it's being used and how little the damage does seem affect us right now when you're also adding in the slightly long cast times.

I am one of the people who doesn't mind the thought of being pinned down for a few moments though so I am also a little biased when it comes to that though. But even if we were able to move under certain conditions, I wouldn't really mind unless it was in an overpowering manner that would be unfair to other classes.

snip.

I think another problem with MCH is their RNG which is actually messing them over as well, it has a few more clunks than Bard does which is why they are currently from my knowledge even lower than us.