DEV REQUEST:DUEL/SPAR system

[Onikimaru]

Wait what? Most mmo is not about TEAM PLAY? Omg someone tell wow rift star wars tera eve ro eq and and you get it? Why would they add hunts for something as trivial as vanity And cute side things. Why add gold saucer. That's trivial right? Wait people asked for these things? How dare they ask for things like they pay to play...wait...yeah

Hunts are not for just vanity(you must have only just come back to the game if you think that), and you're talking about the B ranks, the smallest form of hunts that there is, and one that re-used assets that are already in the game currently. Point of the last statement is that it was so easily implemented because it was re-using assets. Gold saucer was something yoshi-p wanted to add from the beginning, not just because people wanted it. The gold saucer doesn't even have that big of a scope(in the area design yes)the mini games however are so small in comparison to the team objective that is chocobo racing.

I'd just like to isolate this part of your statement. A lot of the people asking for this, (myself included), don't even participate in the frontlines PvP. And out of all the others who want this that do participate in frontlines, most are asking for this for the purpose of having fun in one on one combat with friends or rivals

So it would be fun for your friend to get slaughtered every single time would it?. That's also fine that people just want it for fun but this is not a small thing, infact it's a pretty darn huge project, not to mention them needing to fix it constantly along with adding more features. Then dealing with complaints, then dealing with more complaints and so on and so forth.

[KarmaCha]

wow

why does the FF player base hate dueling so much? o.o

[Gumbercules]

I think duels/sparring would be a nice addition to the wolves den area, long as it has no actual "relevance" to pvp exp and ranking. 4v4+ design for pvp rank/exp/reward is perfectly fine imho. If they decided to make single or even doubles relevant pvp im afraid it would lead to WoW like issues involving overall balance, I should say said zone should also "implement" the current ilvl restrictions while participating in said duel/spar-session though. (i.e ilvl 80 cap as is the current cap, but allow the benefits of the pvp gear to apply, you know for science :P)
So i guess im all for it in good fun, but i do not want to see it become relevant to the point it causes balance issues everywhere else just for the sake of 1v1.

[Gamer3427]

That's also fine that people just want it for fun but this is not a small thing, infact it's a pretty darn huge project, not to mention them needing to fix it constantly along with adding more features. Then dealing with complaints, then dealing with more complaints and so on and so forth.

They wouldn't need to "fix" it constantly, or "add new features". Anything that would be broken in it would already be broken in the normal PvP/PvE, which they would already be in the process of fixing, IE: no extra work there. As for adding new features, what exactly would they have to add? People don't want some new "specially balanced" combat system to be implemented for dueling. We just want the current combat situation but in a way where we can privately play against each other. It wouldn't be a "huge project" by any means. Even if they instanced it as some of the people against it want, it would be as simple as creating a two man instance where players can target each other as enemies. They could even just reuse the arena from either the Hydra Trial, or the Ultros fight from the Hildebrand quest line. It might not be something they could just throw together over night, but it's not like it's something they would have to devote months of development time into as you seem to think......

So it would be fun for your friend to get slaughtered every single time would it?.

First of all, you seem to really underestimate the way classes are balanced in this game. Each one has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Some will almost certainly prove to be better for dueling, but that's unavoidable. The only way to "perfectly balance" something would be to force everyone to play the exact same class. Even games that are built solely around PvP such as FPSs aren't perfectly balanced, as they offer slight differences which theorycrafters always determine that "this varient is the best and if you use anything else you're bad". Guess what? People aren't all focused on Min/Maxing. People will ultimately play what they want. Not to mention that if you're dueling a friend, then if you're just constantly "slaughtering" them, then they are either constantly working to better themselves so that you can't do so, or they stop dueling you after a few failed attempts. Then there's the fact that two friends can always enter as the same class to see which of them is better at it, or to compare their rotations. Either way, if friends are still dueling after the first attempt, then they're clearly still enjoying it. The same can be said for any content in any game ever. Win or lose, you keep playing something either because you enjoy it, or because you're wanting to get better and feel that it's challenging you to do so......

[Talec]

Could you please actually read the thread, rather than just jumping in with a knee-jerk reaction? PvP is balanced completely separately from PvE in this game, PvP balance is never going to impact your PvE gameplay. Complaints about various Jobs already occur in the PvP section and you're completely oblivious to them, why would you suddenly suffer them with duels when you're currently completely unaware of them? Such complaints already happen. They already don't impact PvE balance. Duels wouldn't change a single damned thing in that regard.

That's - sad as it is - bullshit. I'm playing MMORPGs for 15 years now (probably longer than you *jerkmode on*) from the beginnings of Ultima Online to these days. I have seen what duel comparisons did to all the games outside. The reason why they don't affect us now, is because a maybe sloppy 3% of the playerbase do PvP. It's suche a smale whining scale, that nobody cares.
But once you can't walk through Mor Dhona without getting 50 Duel Requests and people try it out and getting beaten ans start to compare the classes in one on one situations, every second thread in here will be a whining thread "why is XY so strong! boohoo, nerf him!" and SE is forced to do something.

Seriously, this is like reading out of a book:

"Apocalypse - whe beginning of the end
Once upon a time, a duel-function got into the game..."

[Hypie]

You have not been PVEing in raiding much have you, the competitiveness in PVE raiding is pretty high, and people use item level to the same affect, I have always found the PVE crowd to contain less honourable players then PVP ones in my experience and I come from a WoW hard mode raiding background with WOL rankings at current content at the time and a few PVP ranked titles but those are nothing special.

I have also completed PVE content in this game too with a T13 clear, and with the experience in both elements, PVE players are much much worse are the whining then PVP players.

I have never seen anything like that until now o,o And if they really bitch around who has the longest epeen...i shrug it off and say "immature brats..."

[Enkidoh]

How about that time in the MSQ where Hoary Boulder literally challenged us to a duel?

Still a boss fight, but the point is that the precedent has been set in the MSQ. People Duel in Eorzea.

Sorry to jump back to this, but this quest (and the level 5 FATE in Central Thanalan 'Something to Prove' where a failed adventurer challenges you to a 'duel'), actually do not prove one on one duelling can fit into ARR's lore - in fact, it proves the opposite. Hoary Boulder and Coultunet challenge you to that duel because you are more than just a lowly adventurer like they are, you are the Warrior of Light, the Champion of Eorzea - they aspire to be like you (like many npc adventurers) and want to test their mettle against you (and are soon put in their place), admitting they have a lot of training to get to your level. Unlike you, they are not special, they do not even have the Echo apparently, but have the resolve to make Eorzea a better place by following in your footsteps. Put simply, beating other adventurers up 'for the lulz' is simply beneath someone of your talents.

The FATE though is a little different - the npc in that was stated as being at the other end of the spectrum, a failed adventurer who had been constantly knocked back membership at various Guilds, and became so depressed, in a misguided attempt to rebuild her shatter sense of worth, she resorted to challenging other adventurers to duels, which was little more than picking fights with them, an act that the FATE description naturally didn't seem to treat too kindly. Meaning duelling between adventurers is actually regarded as being shameful in Eorzea.

Hence, for both these lore reasons, 1x1 PvP simply does not fit story wise - your character is too far up on the moral high ground to lower themselves to beating up more average adventurers simply to flout said strength. Or at least, that's what it seems to me.

[XxSliphxX]

wow

why does the FF player base hate dueling so much? o.o

For lack of a better word the simple answer is this game has the most carebear player population of any mmo. Most ff players are VERY pve/rp/story centric people and most of them are here exactly because they hate pvp so much they don't like most other mmo's that provide a much more robust pvp system. So any talk of any kind of pvp in ff brings out the fear factor 10 fold in them. They don't like anything that would be considered "aggressive" type of play. So even something as simple as adding dueling truly frightens them and ruins their sense of "safety". I know this because i consider myself more of a carebear than a pvp type player myself so i know what they are thinking. However I see no problem with dueling/pvp as long as the game doesn't require me in any way shape or form to have to be involved in it. Honestly that's really my only grip with pvp in mmo's, when it starts to turn into a " if i don't pvp i can't progress my character" situation OR "if i don't pvp i can't get the best gear" that's a problem in my book. As long as it's a separate entity and i can choose whether or not i want to be involved in it such as battle grounds/dueling ect.. I have no issue with it and in fact sometimes enjoy it.

[Nalien]

But once you can't walk through Mor Dhona without getting 50 Duel Requests and people try it out and getting beaten ans start to compare the classes in one on one situations, every second thread in here will be a whining thread "why is XY so strong! boohoo, nerf him!" and SE is forced to do something.

Jesus Christ, please stop making me repeat myself;

WE HAVE SUGGESTED NUMEROUS WAYS IN WHICH PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT INTERESTED IN DUELS CAN BE KEPT OUTSIDE THE LOOP.

Locking duels behind a quests. If you haven't done the quest, people can't send you challenges.
Locking duels behind a minimum PvP Rank. You don't have Rank 10? Nobody can challenge you to a duel. Do you really think some asshat is going to run around demanding you reach Rank 10 PvP in order to 1v1 you?
Locking them behind an opt-in process, like the Friendslist. If you don't opt-in, nobody can send you a duel request.

Please do explain how you're going to get spammed with requests with such restrictions in place. Better yet, how about you explain why, if complaining about balance became a thing (even though it already is), it would even affect you, because, once again; PvP is balanced separately for PvE. People already complain about Job balance in PvP to some degree. SE already doesn't balance PvE around those complaints, they balance PvP around those complaints (Clerics Stance stills works in PvE, right?). Those complaints are already limited to the PvP subsection and would not suddenly migrate to the General Discussion. Seriously, when issues with PvP balance already do not affect PvE in the slightest, what makes you think duels will suddenly change that? All of the PvP balance threads get put in the PvP section, where you'll never see them. Quite a few PvP threads even get moved there. SE still wont listen to PvP balance requests and change PvE because of it though, because that isn't how they've set up PvP in this game. Why is it so hard to get this point through your collective skulls? Summoner still gets Resurrect outside PvP. White Mage/Scholar still get Clerics Stance. Bard doesn't have to find a certain distance from their enemy to maximize damage, etc. etc.

PvP balance does not affect PvE balance. The two are balanced separately because the developers have a few more brain cells than most MMO developers. Why would they change this because of duels? It was a brilliant idea to balance both separately and duels, in no way, would cause them to change that concept.

Jesus Christ this is getting old... Sorry for the caps and if that came off as a tad harsh, but yeah... I am fucking sick of people out right ignoring the points made, read the bleedin' thread. Stop acting like PvP content will destroy PvE balance when that is absolute bullshit.

The reason why they don't affect us now, is because a maybe sloppy 3% of the playerbase do PvP. It's suche a smale whining scale, that nobody cares.

The reason it doesn't affect you now is because PvP is balanced separately from PvE, but I'm curious... If only a "sloppy" 3% of the playerbase do PvP... What makes you think duels would skyrocket that number to a significant point that PvP balance complaints suddenly start impacting PvE? To me, "Not a lot of people PvP" translates to "Not a lot of people would be interested in duels", which just makes all of the complaints in this thread even more pathetic. People will be dueling everywhere and spamming requests (since I bet someone is going to ignore the suggested restrictions again)? Well that simply wont happen because not a lot of people PvP. Duels will cause so much lag? Not if only 3% are interested in PvP and they're spread out across the map. Duels will be a blight on the landscape? Same answer as before.

Why would duels suddenly turn enough people into PvPers to the point where PvP balance threads become more numerous and continue to only affect PvP balance?

Hence, for both these lore reasons, 1x1 PvP simply does not fit story wise - your character is too far up on the moral high ground to lower themselves to beating up more average adventurers simply to flout said strength. Or at least, that's what it seems to me.

What about Ul'dah? They have a culture pretty heavily rooted in duels. The Coliseum, where a certain someone made his claim to fame, also came back up in the Hildibrand quest arc where we were, go figure, going to duel random people until someone crashed the opera duel. Halatali (Hard) which was basically "PvP, the dungeon". People in Eorzea fight each other, deal with it. There is no lore reason not to have duels where there are so many examples of such culture throughout Eorzea.

Heck, your point that we're "too far up on the moral high ground" is completely absurd considering PvP already exists... How do you explain Wolves' Den or Frontlines in that context? We're already going around beating up fellow adventurers to flout our strength... What's the big difference between 1v1 and 4v4 from a lore standpoint? There isn't one.

[bettomendes]

We all know pvp players doesn't want duels to be just duels left alone. As an example, i would rather that ADS mount be locked behind completing Coil a million times than any pvp related stuff.
Just my opinion, as always.