The Ninja Superthread

[Arkenne]

Silent... Im pretty sure Im going to regret this, but here I go...

The refresh huton skill is into a combo behind guts slash

Again, they never said refresh, restart, reset, redo, reapply. They said Extend. As in, adding some seconds to the remaining time.

Also, Im pretty sure by now that english, like with me, is not your main language. So Im not sure if you are playing the game in english at all, but the skill you are placing there is not called Guts Slash, but Gust Slash... I would have considered it a typo but the repetition of this detail happened way too many times...

Also, if we are going to step so much into assumptions, positionals CAN be fun, you know?

I already posted 2 scenarios which could make them interesting even (on my mind at least).

Allow me to place 2 examples of what I think positionals for Ninja would be interesting and different from Monk and Dragoon, by taking Monk and Dragoon as role models and making so the positional effects will differ depending on if you use the skill from the Flank or the Rear of the oponent. All this while still keeping Aeolian's Edge terrain intact or even improve it.

Warning: the things to follow are VERY long and out of my own imagination which is inspired by the very same incomplete information that's been given so far.

First, again, the following examples are just a thing that came out of my mind, and I am considering that no skill potency will be affected by positionals, since imo thats sad and boring, so a NIN that does no positionals is the same NIN we know.

Okay, so, lets take MNK's positional mechanics first:
MNK positionals doesn't really spin around their weaponskills, but the form that are triggered by their skills.
If it were simply based on their weaponskills you would be able to critical Bootshine or apply Dragon Kick from the get-go, which isnt the case.
Nope, positionals for MNK actually spin around the forms Raptor, Coeurl and Opo-opo.
So actually MNK opener goes usually: Activate Raptor > Raptor Flank > Coeurl Rear > Opo-opo Flank > Raptor Rear > Coeurl Flank > Opo-opo Rear.

How can this work for NIN?? Well... lets say that the skills Spinning Edge, Gust Slash and Aeolian's Edge have positionals.
Spinning Edge Flank -> Huton + 3s (cant go higher than 70 seconds)
Spinning Edge Rear -> Dancing Edge + 3s (cant go higher than 20 seconds)
Gust Slash Flank -> Dancing Edge + 3s, DoTs +1s
Gust Slash Rear -> Huton + 3 seconds.
Aeolian Edge Flank -> Huton + 3s, Dancing Edge + 2s, DoTs + 1s.
Aeolian Edge Rear -> Dancing Edge + 3s, Huton + 2s, DoTs 1s.

So if we want to boost Huton we would need to go SE Flank > GS Rear > AE Flank.
Or if we want to boost DE + DoTs we would need to go SE Rear > GS Flank > AE Rear.
Or maybe go hybrid and boost all by going full Flank or full Rear.


Now what if we model after DRG old positionals?
Old positionals for DRG were characteristic of the fact that if they didn't land from where they were meant to, things wouldn't start at all... but if we get double positionals for this:
Spinning Edge Flank -> All following Weaponskills will have a Huton +3s effect added to them.
Spinning Edge Rear -> All following Weaponskills will have a DE + 4s and DoTs + 1s effect added to them.

As in SE Flank would make GS, AE and even Mutilate have a Huton +3s effect but will nor restrict them to be done on the Flank side. So long SE did hit on the Flank.
And SE Rear would make GS, AE and even Mutilate have a DE +4s and DoTs + 1s effect but will not restrict them to be done on the Rear side. So long SE did hit on the Rear.
Similar to a Stance Dance.


Both examples could effectively delay the need to refresh either Huton, Dancing Edge or the DoTs by a few seconds. Which would then in converse allow the use of winding in more Aeolian Edges and... hell, even new GCDs...


Again, this is just an example of how I think Positional would be fun for NIN, since I like tricky plays. If they were to affect only the Potency of the Weaponskills then that would be sad and boring.

Lets hope for the best.

[Arkenne]

Ping for NIN

0~75 > you'll be awesome and have all the girls for yourself.
76~115 > You will still be awesome, but the girls will not die for you. Raiton might start clipping on your GCD
116~150 > Shuriken will definitely be better than Raiton on melee range.
151~300 > Huton and Suiton will be so annoying to the point you'll hate casting Huton and think twice about using Suiton... Raiton will be a definite DPS loss on melee range.
300~500 > You will not even try to use any ninjutsu outside Huton and it will take you about 3~5 seconds. Even Shuriken might start clipping on your GCD.
500+ > don't try it... or any melee at that.

[Zamii]

0~75 > you'll be awesome and have all the girls for yourself.
76~115 > You will still be awesome, but the girls will not die for you. Raiton might start clipping on your GCD
116~150 > Shuriken will definitely be better than Raiton on melee range.
151~300 > Huton and Suiton will be so annoying to the point you'll hate casting Huton and think twice about using Suiton... Raiton will be a definite DPS loss on melee range.
300~500 > You will not even try to use any ninjutsu outside Huton and it will take you about 3~5 seconds. Even Shuriken might start clipping on your GCD.
500+ don't try it...

was still better to use suiton and fuma at 350-400 ping when i was playing on an an NA world, though even fuma started clipping into GCD, and suiton when you think about it is really like 700-800 potency when you add in trick attack, more if you include everyone elses dps increase.

[Arkenne]

Well, its still a general idea based on my gaming experience... damn you netflix >:|

[silentwindfr]

i use the term refresh, but people say that we have 3 aeolian edge per huton, when... it's 2 actually, 3 every 2 huton... did i have said that we will loose dps? no, i have said that aeolian edge utility will be greatly reduce, even if it's an extension, explain me how you will place it into our cycle where you need to continually refresh 2 dot and 1 debuff. one dot that are out of a combo; one dot and one debuff into two different combo. even with 2 second of gcd (what we tend to not have most of us) it will ask us 12 second (6 action for place this or refresh it) you add another combo of 3 skill for the refresh/extend duration of huton (but there we digressing about word since it's still a trouble of time and action) that add another 6 second, it give us 18 second... at that moment we must refresh our debuff/dot leading to add 12 another second, leading us to 30 second.

and that the truth about our cycle. we are in a loop of 30 second... where the refresh of our debuff and dot take most of our time. but i admit, every 30 second, we do have still one action that we can use for what we want.

other point about something that you seems to litterally ignore about positional and the "bonus", they are changing the core mechanic of the combo system for add it. however, and that the point that you seems to miss, the ninja for the people not having heavenward must keep the same balance/dps output than we have now. and how they can do it? 2 possibility:
- first one reduce the potency of the skill if you don't match the position, it's an add of restriction, leading to a nerf if we can't match the position.
- second, and i do hope it's not this one... the effect of the skill that have positional (probably dancing edge and shadowfang) will not be applied if you don't match the positional.

i want to be clear, you need to stop to be naive and think that everything they have done it's for make the ninja better... that are not the case. most of the add was made for match the other jobs... not for increase or expand our jobs. like Yoshida have said, they don't think that ninja need improvement, but need to be balanced by adding positional. we can argue all day about this, but it's a fact...

musou sandan and issou, even if we don't know how exactly they work are there for make sure we can match the new dps of the other jobs like monk, dragoon, bard, machinist, summoner and black mage... all this jobs get new powerfull skill and if ninja didn't get a boost of dps, it will be really bad. even the fact to allows us to use more raiton it's an easy way to fix partially the trouble of the mudra lag and give us more dps.

i will be more blunt, the fact to allows us to extend or refresh huton is... in a way bad. before you take it bad listen to me, why allows us to use more ninjutsu skill.... if in the end we willl still use the 3 same ninjutsu. this freedom this skill will give us... are not really freedom. it's only means for give us a small dps buff... since every 60 second (if we can maintain huton with the skill) we will get a new raiton, it's cool don't get me wrong.... but why give this to us without add new ninjutsu for be used with?

you are there trying to confort yourself and make you believe everything is part of a big plan that will work... but time and number don't lie... please don't get me wrong, i want to be wrong... soo badly... it pain me to see this. but i can't change the fact. our cycle can't be changed if they don't change where is dancing edge or add the new skill for huton behind shadow fangs. (what will solve all of this)

soo far all i have said remain true... the limitation of our combo system, the mudra lag that make it a mess, the fact that add positional will add no fun to the ninja or the fact that aeolian will be far less used with the add of the new skill behind guts slash.
by the way, sadly no information was said for change how the combo skill are used soo far. or if they plan to add a system like think arkenne. even if it can be interesting as idea, they have said it... ninja don't need improvement or any add outside of the positional and the 5 skill we will get. because we need to get 5 skill with 10 level added.

i'm not naive enough for thrust them to make perfect decision. in this past year, they have show us that they can make mistake that break stuff that had soo much potential. like the personal housing, the hunts, the wedding,....

[Allyrion]

other point about something that you seems to litterally ignore about positional and the "bonus", they are changing the core mechanic of the combo system for add it. however, and that the point that you seems to miss, the ninja for the people not having heavenward must keep the same balance/dps output than we have now. and how they can do it?

I didn't miss it. I already said I find the whole notion ridiculous.
Do you really know how hard it is to balance classes between one another?
Then to add tools to all the classes and to rebalance around that.
You suggest that not only must they do that, but they have to keep balance of the kits at 50 as well?

50 is now leveling content. They do not balance around leveling content.
If some classes are OP or nerfed at 50, no one cares anymore. The people who don't get Heavensward will just have to get it eventually.
But they certainly don't have to tune balance for two separate endgames with two different kits.

So yea, until you can give a better reason than "cause some people won't buy HW" then I completely deny this reason will play a factor.

[Arkenne]

guts slash.

Its Gust Slash, not Guts, Gust!!
GamerEscape says Gust Slash!!
XIVDB.com says Gust Slash!!
The S and T arent even close in a qwerty keyboard! (I dunno the others)

Please, keep the name of the skills right if you want to defend NIN in any possible way!!

[silentwindfr]

sorry if the namming of the skill is not perfect but english is not my maternal language, but you get my point.

it don't change what i say or try to explain.

I didn't miss it. I already said I find the whole notion ridiculous.
Do you really know how hard it is to balance classes between one another?
Then to add tools to all the classes and to rebalance around that.
You suggest that not only must they do that, but they have to keep balance of the kits at 50 as well?

50 is now leveling content. They do not balance around leveling content.
If some classes are OP or nerfed at 50, no one cares anymore. The people who don't get Heavensward will just have to get it eventually.
But they certainly don't have to tune balance for two separate endgames with two different kits.

So yea, until you can give a better reason than "cause some people won't buy HW" then I completely deny this reason will play a factor.

brillant... simply brillant...
when i did have said that people will not buy HW?

every time you try to counter my argument, your are the one bringing empty word, saying you can do it or we don't have enough information (when it's not always the case).

what i did said, it's for people without heavenward (what will happend) the balance must remain, for you it's now a leveling content, but not for every one. simply ignoring this and try to justify your biased opionion like this is amusing. other point, heavenward only apply to people from 51-60 the add from this level will have no impact on the people level 50 and below. why break the balance they have reach with the jobs while the 2.X simply for allows them to add positional to one jobs.

now i'm tired of all of this... i'm here talking of fact, number and cycle, you come here with nothing... because if you really think that positional will result into an increase of dps, you don't know well how this game did evolve... i will take an example, really close of us, the damage of impulse drive of the dragoon, was 100 potency if you didn't match the positional recquirement and 180 if you was in the rear.... now after they have take out the positional recquirement it's 180 potency. it's how work the combo system, either it allows you to add a buff or debuff... or increase the potency of the skill. it's made as a restriction, for force player to move from side to rear. for force them to adapt more them gameplay around the capacity of the boss.

on the paper positional is brillant when it's well done. like with the monk, where it's perfectly fluid and offer a great pleasure to do it. or it can be frustrating, like was the dragoon before the change, where if you had missing the rear positional of impulse drive... you had to redo it for have the combo.

another point, that i have already pointed, the combo system of the ninja was made as complexe because we hadn't any positional recquirement, it was made differently for force us to make sure we will have something to manage, the dot/debuff refresh. then, how this complexe combo system will work if you add it more complex recquirement, now we will have to pay attention to our debuff/dot.... while paying attention to our position... and still doing the mudra.

i did describe this as dancing one feet while juggling. do it will be fun? do it not turn into a chore? that a question that everybody must answer for themself. for me i'm concerned that it was the easy way to add content to the ninja instead to really work on it.

[Dante_V]

im kinda getting over explaining how and why this works a thousand times over, if you understand how and why what i've been talking about applies to my original post i bought it up in then great, if not, really not my problem.

I understand how it works just fine. That doesn't make efficient or even a good idea however. I'm kinda over you period so the feeling is mutual.

[Dervy]

another point, that i have already pointed, the combo system of the ninja was made as complexe because we hadn't any positional recquirement, it was made differently for force us to make sure we will have something to manage, the dot/debuff refresh. then, how this complexe combo system will work if you add it more complex recquirement, now we will have to pay attention to our debuff/dot.... while paying attention to our position... and still doing the mudra.

Because the Dragoon and Monk don't do this already. And don't use the argument that "Ninja rotation is more complex!". It really isn't. You can write it down, action to action, exactly like the Dragoon. The only complexity that the Ninja has is Mudras, which are only used on average every 17.5s.