The Ninja Superthread

[Dante_V]

I've been trying to explain this to this guy for like the last week and he just refuses to acknowledge it. He seems more hell bent in doing aeolian edge just for the sake of doing aeolian edge honestly. Let's not forget that the Huton extension would be voluntary so if he is absolutely against it he wouldn't be required to do it (although not doing it would effectively need his own dps)

He also completely ignores that having a Huton weapon skill extension is a means to deal with Mudra lag to a degree even if it is indirect in its own right.

On top of that he keeps labeling a positional requirement as a nerf when every single positional in the game adds a bonus to dps.

[Dante_V]

let me explain a little further then, accuracy requirements are brocken up into 3 sections for each boss, frontal, flank and rear.
the reasoning behind monk and dragoon using the flank accuracy is because well you need to hit your flank positionals.
casting classes however are considered to always hit the rear of a target, this allows them to use lower accuracy, with the exception of summoner which has diminished values toward its pet.

what makes ninja different to the other melle is it doesnt have any flank positionals (currently) which means you can position yourself behind the boss at all times without a lose in dps due to missing positionals, this then allows you to use the rear, or BLM, accuracy cap.

You should never be using the rear accuracy cap as many mechanics and strategies for the current raid content will require you to be on the flank. There is a reason why melee dps are using flank acc as a basis for best in slot.

[Allyrion]

i'm a bit astonished, did you read any of my post? i means i did bring information. we do have already information that are enough for know if it gonna work or not.

the fact that the refresh huton skill is behind guts slash is an information enough for know how will change our cycle only with this. and you will note i don't use information about musou sandan, since it clearly not enough for know what they means by three stage attack.

the simple fact to have the refresh huton skill behind guts slash means it will take more of 6 second for use it. it will recquire 3 action into GCD for be used... with the current combo system is far more than enough for know how it will affect our capacity. with a duration of 70 second for huton and our cycle based on duration of 30 second. explain me something, how this information is not enough for say that aeolian edge will be used far less with this skill? at best it will be used every 30 second... since we only have a windows of 4 action outside the refresh of the dot and debuff.

explain me how is not enough for understand this? how try this will change the number? time is time, wherever you are, it's something that not change. please, try to look at your own cycle now. and tell i'm wrong? instead to defend the decision of SE, maybe it's time to look at what was done so far and what they have announced.

4 information was given that was enough for know how they will affect the ninja in heavenward.

1) the refresh huton skill is into a combo behind guts slash
2) the add of a skill for transfert enemity to a teammate
3) the add of a skill for reduce the enmity of a teammate
4) the add of positional to several skill already existing.

this last one was proved and not by only me, that this decision was not good. we can argue about how it will...maybe...be good and doable.
it don't change 2 point:
- do it will bring fun to the jobs? like you said yourself, the ninja is not about positional but about manage different stuff, like the duration of our dot and debuff plus the use of the mudra systeme. how add positional that will add to our task to check our position will bring fun to our jobs? and don't hope that positional will have another effect than reduce potency if you don't match it. it's a restriction, a nerf, it was presented like this every time they have talk of it.

They have talked about it once.
And even then, it was not that clear. They simply said we'll have to move because we didn't have to before.
That implies the system will encourage us to move, through a buff or nerf is completely unstated. Anything taken from such a vague sentence is an assumption.
If you have to rely on phrasing, you obviously aren't working on solid evidence.
Moreover, the Japanese if even more ambiguous if this change was meant to be some kind of nerf. It doesn't imply anything.

The rest of the information is mostly from second-hand sources.
As much as the journalists tried their best, they had to test all the classes and especially the new classes. Ninja information is sparse.

It's also been unreliable since we have contradicting reports.
You can't take rotations in parts and analyze it. And we can't take the rotation as a whole because we don't know how it fits together.

Vague descriptions of abilities from second hand sources really isn't enough to justify acting like you understand the future of the Job.
I don't know how you can't see that.

Everything you've made your case on is based on things we should take with a grain of salt.
This isn't even about viewpoints anymore. Positive or negative. This is simply about trying to look at things objectively.

Also, I really want a weaponskill so I don't have to recast Fuuton. I can't wait for that.
I'll gladly lose Aeolian Edge sometimes for that.
It's not like I'm super attached to Aeolian Edge or that we have any evidence it will be completely phased out.
If we use it less, well that's what happens with any new skill.

Every new GCD ability takes up a spot that would've been by an old skill. Regardless of combo.
You add new skills. You always use the old skills less.

That said, I posted that I want Shadowfang to have a finisher just for it to be complete.


And yea, you're back to this expansion stuff.
I already said I don't agree. Not many games I know release an entire Job/Class in a patch.
They should've already been making Heavensward when NIN came out. It has only had one tier of raiding.
So yea, I don't think we should get as much changes as other classes. Changes for the sake of change is bad.

Sure, expansions should give everyone attention.
But that's because you usually only get new Jobs/Classes in an expansion, hence it's always equal.


Having the most toys doesn't make you better anyway.
Numbers can be tuned and mechanics are usually worked around being within a certain range. So maybe we'll be top dps in heavensward, maybe bottom, probably somewhere in-between regardless of how many added things we get.
Then we still have more utility than most. So yeah, I think NIN has a good place in raid comps.

Then we can talk about fun.
But there's really little to talk about because at the end of the day, we have to play with it to actually know if it's fun.
If I think of the NIN rotation in my head, with just the ideas of effects then obviously it doesn't sound fun.
If I play in-game, or even imagine it with with the whole rotation and animations in mind then I can see the fun.

Right now, we don't know how our rotation flows, so it's too early to know if it's fun.



Lastly, yea we can talk about what concerns us here and what we're looking forward to or not.
But that doesn't make it right to judge something before you really understand it.
It just comes across as being emotional rather than objective.

If someone's not happy with the change, they can voice it by all means.
It's when people say the same feedback with the same points over and over with explanations like if they're saying it for the first time, that it gets tiresome.
It's when they lose reason by filling in the gaps of information with assumptions, just to justify their own judgmental emotion.

And please don't act like you're fair about people voicing your opinion.
You literally got in a frenzy because I replied to someone else about positionals.
You don't really seem to even like other people who aren't raging about the changes.

Anyway, I don't have the energy to internet-argue anymore with you about something like this.
The expansion is coming out just now, and then even if this discussion isn't reasonable, it will at least be informed.

But I will say this, even if NIN is horrid in the expansion.
Your posts would've done nothing to stop it or help it improve. All your doing is trying to create a negative echo chamber to vent your emotions.
That's not real feedback, and really not something you should do publicly imo.
It just puts a blemish on the forums until the actual expansion, regardless of if the changes turn out good or bad.


Anyway, I'm really done this time.
At least, for this argument.

[SunnyHirose]

Just how damning is having bad ping? My ping ranges anywhere from 100-300 depending on the day. I'd love to try out a ROG/NIN but am concerned I will basically flub due to it. My aim is for the more "casual" content, probably not for anything above casual 24-man raids, don't do coils or such generally speaking (and would use my DRG/SCH if I was going to). Should I still consider NIN?

There are few DPS checks of any significance outside coil and EX primals. As long as you're Doing It Right, you'll be more than fine.

[Dante_V]

Can anyone manage to post me the BiS list for 2.5? I've searched this forum and the sub reddit and for some reason any links to Ariyala's won't work. They just time out. Don't know what's going on.

Go with one of these sets and you will be fine. Having the full crit/det zeta with this setup is preferred over the dread daggers.


http://www.ffxivguild.com/ffxiv-ninj...me-gear-guide/

[Zamii]

You should never be using the rear accuracy cap as many mechanics and strategies for the current raid content will require you to be on the flank. There is a reason why melee dps are using flank acc as a basis for best in slot.

it was mentioned in my post before this (and by someone else after the quoted post) that this method cannot be applied to all fights in the game, that being said, T10, T12 and to some degree t13 can be done using this method of accuracy, it just requires a little more effort and skill than you seem to be able to comprehend.
i could go as far to say you could modify slightly the T11 method and have it effective in there also, making it an option in the entirety of fcob.

[Zamii]

Just how damning is having bad ping? My ping ranges anywhere from 100-300 depending on the day. I'd love to try out a ROG/NIN but am concerned I will basically flub due to it. My aim is for the more "casual" content, probably not for anything above casual 24-man raids, don't do coils or such generally speaking (and would use my DRG/SCH if I was going to). Should I still consider NIN?

i cleared T13 pre-echo with my ninja with an average ping of 350+ (fyi, playing on NA world from Australia... bad idea), it takes a little getting used to, but you can still be a far sight better than the avarage PUG if you work at it.

[Allyrion]

Just how damning is having bad ping? My ping ranges anywhere from 100-300 depending on the day. I'd love to try out a ROG/NIN but am concerned I will basically flub due to it. My aim is for the more "casual" content, probably not for anything above casual 24-man raids, don't do coils or such generally speaking (and would use my DRG/SCH if I was going to). Should I still consider NIN?

Honestly, if you're not going to be hardcore, it'll end up a matter of feeling.

With lag, you have to slow down for your ninjutsu. It breaks the flow of the rotation a little bit and some people don't like it because they know if they had a better connection, then they'd already be doing their next attack.
You can perform the rotation and do well with lag. Maybe someone else can do better but you're not talking about Coil or anything.

So yea, having bad ping isn't a NIN death sentence. You'll just have to slow down sometimes when the mudra take a while to activate.

[Dante_V]

it was mentioned in my post before this (and by someone else after the quoted post) that this method cannot be applied to all fights in the game, that being said, T10, T12 and to some degree t13 can be done using this method of accuracy, it just requires a little more effort and skill than you seem to be able to comprehend.
i could go as far to say you could modify slightly the T11 method and have it effective in there also, making it an option in the entirety of fcob.

Skill and effort than I seem to understand. Aye. Got it. Because making your whole team adjust effective mechanics because you can't be bothered to meet an accuracy cap is "skill".

Then when you happen to throw a hit from the side it's your own dps loss.

Just another good reason for positionals.

[Zamii]

Skill and effort than I seem to understand. Aye. Got it. Because making your whole team adjust effective mechanics because you can't be bothered to meet an accuracy cap is "skill".

Then when you happen to throw a hit from the side it's your own dps loss.

Just another good reason for positionals.

im kinda getting over explaining how and why this works a thousand times over, if you understand how and why what i've been talking about applies to my original post i bought it up in then great, if not, really not my problem.