The Ninja Superthread

[Allyrion]

Well, Zamii did say in the post before that he meant for some fights.

The fights you can confidently stay in the rear (which are fewer, but it happens) then you can have a gear set with less accuracy (like how people have low ACC sets for primals).
Obviously, you can default to a flank set when the fight doesn't allow for that.

He's not saying that you should always just be using the rear cap. He's saying the design allows for a disparity in dps depending on fight design that may not be intentional.
It's kind of like how BRD's dps is gimped when there's not much movement compared to the rest, while it can be more equal now that they have Wanderer's Minuet.

Not sure the acc difference is as significant though, and everyone's dps (except BRD) increases on stationary fights as well.
A fight where you can stay in the rear the whole time is probably the same as one where the MNK can keep up GL3. Dropping acc a little isn't equal to that really.

That said, I think there is a point, that is generally valid, moving forward.
I think positionals and casting are a good base for keeping balance, and gives the developers more freedom with fight designs.
The Job differences should be in the skills and how they work, which is much easier to adjust and build from.

[silentwindfr]

actually positional are not needed for balance... in other mmorpg, only one sort of jobs use positional and it's the rogue/thief/assassin class. other jobs don't use positional, they prefer work on other mechanic for make them jobs more different.

a few exemple of dps melee that don't rely on positional but other type of mechanic from WoW:
- Warrior fury spé. here the warrior will need to work with the energy (rage) earned from him skill and attack for unleash destructive blow, it don't have any positional mechanic and don't need them since most of him gameplay is based on the rage generation.
- Shaman enhancement, here it's a melee closer of the ninja on the paper, i means here a dual wield attacker melee mixed with magical attack. here it's based on the proc he can get from auto attack and critical. still no positional...

the main weakness of FF14 is the fact that a lot of jobs are too much similar...and with the add of positional to ninja it's more the case. instead to work on a system mixing more the ninjutsu and the weaponskill, they did decide to drop the ball and search for an easy way...

worst, the combo system, the backbone of the melee jobs for FF14 is not fluid on the ninja, it was made soo hastly that it don't allow any addition to it. we did see it with the demonstration i have done before, because of the dot/debuff duration, you have about 3 action that can be done outside the debuff and dot refresh. by adding a skill for refresh huton behind guts slash (instead than behind shadowfangs) they have show us it limitation, our main damage finisher (aeolian edge) will be, depending of how the refresh of huton work, not usable in the worst case. exept if a warrior is puting our debuff... (storm's eye) and it show how much limited the combo system for the the ninja is.

we can argue about how make a square enter a circle hole. it will not work... positional added to that system is a trouble in the fact and sole fact that the duration of our debuff and dot are not matching. why it's fluid for the monk? because the dot and debuf duration is made for match the cycle of the switch of position between flank and rear. that not the case for the ninja.... the whole combo systeme was not think with positional in mind. and decide to add it now, more of 6 month after it release show how little they have considered the impact on our jobs.

and more important, we still have the mudra lag, that mess up our timing and cycle... i do have a question, do the ninja and dragon have 2-4 skill to launch in less of 2 second every 20 second? no, why give us stuff means for the monk and dragoon, to a jobs that have already a tool that needed to be worked on and expanded for offer us a more fun and appealing experience.

no instead they did decide that fun and originality was not means to be there... and instead to work on our main tool... NINJUTSU. they did said... that our jobs don't need work on it. when, last time i did check.... the mudra lag is still a huge trouble! soo much a trouble that they did decide to add a weaponskill for ease huton maintenance. explain me this, how something, they have admit to be broken and not working well is not something that needed to be worked on?

how add positional will make our jobs more fun and appealing? because a lot of people did quit ninja, because of the mudra lag and the frustration from it... instead to work on make our jobs more fun.... the battle team did decide that it was more important to place more restriction on the only jobs, that have a systeme that can fail because of the lag!!! sorry i'm soo much angry because all the stuff they have said that don't match up! all the escuse they have give us, are not good. why add positional to the ninja, while taking out a part of the one from the dragoon?
why not work on the ninjutsu and the mudra, when it's our main tool and it's still broken for most of us?

and for the god sake, explain me like i'm a kids, how add positional will make our favorite jobs more fun and appealing? please try to explain me... i'm listening, i'm sure all the ninja community is ready to listen to your reason... instead to leave us into darkness, maybe it's time to explain us how all of this is good decision?
i'm even sure, that most of us, is ready to wait for the 3.1 for get our change, it's ok... but please talk to us... explain to us... more important, listen to us! we are the one playing the ninja. we are the one that will be affected by this. not the monk nor dragoon nor bard or any jobs... listen to us because soo far, all the change announced for ninja are either situational skill or decision that are not adapted to our jobs. don't we deserve to have fun like the other? if you have only one question you must answer is this one.

don't we deserve to have fun while playing ninja like the other?

[Allyrion]

I mean, I played WoW since the start of BC myself and mostly melee.
But that model doesn't apply here because even the Rogue and Feral druid "positionals" are just flavor or for ganking.

Hence their whole melee model is completely different.
Plus you can't really compare to WoW classes which are super easy now anyway.
So yea, I don't think WoW is really relevant to SE balance.

If we were to take other games into account, I'll say that I'm probably only okay with positionals because I played so many games (particularly WoW) where melee really just stood against a mob and wailed on it.
And though adding positionals to NIN may be homogenization within FFXIV, not having it makes NIN more like all the other melee outside of FFXIV.

I've explained across many threads why I don't mind positionals, and I don't think our rotation is too hard with it either.
I'm not even saying it's needed, and I would never have asked for it before. But I don't mind supporting them when they've already decided to add it.

Honestly, some people say they joined Ninja to not deal with positionals.
Then they act like their the true voices of the class. Yet they only joined it to get away from something else.
Silent, you yourself, have shown little love for most of what makes up the class.

You say the rotation is messy because of your combo branches off. (Clearly part of the base design)
You say the rotation is hard to keep track of (in a negative way) because everything isn't lined up neatly. (Also base design)
You seem to like the Ninjutsu but always complain about the mudra lag associated.
That last is understandable, but the only thing you actually seem to like about ninja is unenjoyable to perform when actually playing.

If some people only joined this class to get away from positionals, that really doesn't say anything about how much they really identify with the Job.
It really just says how much they wanted to get away from something else.
They might just flip Jobs to whatever has the least positionals in HW but if they really played NIN just to get away from positionals, then that's not really a loss.


Anyway, I'm not really going to argue or discuss more with you until after the patch notes.
Because you've obviously gotten yourself super upset on partial information and can't seem to wait until we actually get enough information to understand NIN post Heavensward, holistically.
You're just rambling on speculation, some of which I find ridiculous (such as keeping 50 balanced because some people won't buy Heavensward).

Sure, something could be said about the lack of information.
But that's a PR-developer decision. They probably want some to be more of a surprise and probably also want to leave room for some testing.

Either way, nothing we say before we actually get to play is going to influence them, so what's the point of your whining now?
I'm pretty sure they're smart enough not to consider it since you haven't actually played yet.

Maybe you (and the rest) will still hate it after release, but that's empty speculation.
Thus, it's meaningless.

[silentwindfr]

Silent, you yourself, have shown little love for most of what makes up the class.

You say the rotation is messy because of your combo branches off. (Clearly part of the base design)
You say the rotation is hard to keep track of (in a negative way) because everything isn't lined up neatly. (Also base design)
You seem to like the Ninjutsu but always complain about the mudra lag associated.
That last is understandable, but the only thing you actually seem to like about ninja is unenjoyable to perform when actually playing.

first i don't appreciate that you doubt my affection for ninja, if that was the case (and since i have all the jobs to 50) i will not be there at fight back this change.

you say that i have no love for what make the ninja, when i point limitation and stuff that need to be rework and more developped. more important, you defend stuff that will change what make the ninja.
the cycle of the ninja have little to no room for error and addition to the weaponskill combo. that a reality, a fact, is not me, it's how the number fall. we do need to maintain 3 debuff/dot. one to 18 second, one to 20 second and one to 30 second.
last time i did check, most of the other melee jobs have two or three of this debuff linked into one combo:
- monk: dragon kick (blunt defense debuff), demolish (dot) and twin snake (boost of damage) they can be chain at will into one combo (naturally you don't do it, since demolish is a rear skill, you place it into the second combo)
- Dragoon: disembowel (piercing defense debuff) and chaos thrust (dot) are part of the same combo and are chain one after another.

for the ninja the two debuff/dot are from different combo and better they have 2 second of difference into them duration. when it's clearly not possible to chain them, at best shadowfang after dancing edge will take 4 second before be placed. this was make in mind for add complexity to the combo of the ninja, not based on positional or any other mechanic, it was made like this for recquire more skill than simply do 1-2-3. you willl need to plan your fight.

and it was made with the ninjutsu in mind, what is clever, however it's did lead us to a trouble, the lack of possibility for add new skill or new combo. since add one combo, will lead to simply scraps aeolian edge from our cycle. even if it's every 30 second. it will make like aeolian edge as a 30 second cd, because it's how the cycle work. we work with a 30 second cycle. since we spend most of our time, to refresh our debuff and dot. we are not different of what do bard... exept we do it with combo. (other melee don't have this trouble since them combo allows them to land 2-3 debuff with one combo, about 6-8 sec)

but here the trouble, the ninjutsu and the mudra lag. i'm not the only one that have to deal with it, and you do like it's nothing. my GCD is 2.05... it means i do have 2.05 for do suiton mudra, but it's not possible with the mudra lag, since do a 3 sign ninjutsu will often lead to 2.3-2.5 second. then i loose time every 20 second, making my cycle a mess. since every 20 second, i can loose about 0.5 second. after 80 second, i loose one action... and it can become quite worse even for raiton, when suddenly it become weird and don't take my first mudra, and instead to focus on my cycle and make mudra, i'm forced to pay attention to the lag.

how i can't complain about them lack of reaction for fix this issue? since it affect all our gameplay?
and i have said countless time, that i regret that they didn't add more mechanic to the ninjutsu or did focus more on this.. i always call it our main tool. but, when a tool is broken because of trouble link to the lag... we must say it. i do hope they work more on the ninjutsu and make it more fluid with our weaponskill, mixing them better than we have actually. i dunno how solve the mudra lag. tons of stuff was said about it, but it's a fact that it affect the fun to play ninja, since mudra was made as a tool that can fail, if the player mess up. however, it's frustrating to mess up, not because of your capacity but because of the lag.

i did wait the ninja for age... i did play the V1 and was hoping for it at some point, i did wait it when it was one of the few jobs yoshida did talk about in 2013... i did wait it enough for have all my atma and stuff ready for it. and i still love it enough for ask them to answer us or plan to still play it as main. even if i wait to see how the jobs will be enjoyable with them change. if it's enjoyable i will be the first to do my mea culpa... but soo far with what we know of the ninja and the trouble inside it. the announcement don't bring fun, i don't defend SE blindly and prefer be a devil's advocate than regret to not have move before it's too late.

when you love something, you must protect it and fight for it... when you don't love it, you don't fight for it. if something is clear is my love for the ninja. i didn't say it's not enjoyable to play it now. but i feel it can be improved... but the change they propose will clearly not be enjoyable...

other point i find quite rude in your way of thinking... because for you, it's ok, and because some people did choose ninja for it lack of positional don't means them voice is less important than your. they deserve as much respect than you, they did decide to play a jobs that they find enjoyable... because for you and me, it's not a trouble to add positional... don't means them point are not valid. it will be nice to not forget it.

finally, explain me something, you say that you like the ninja how it is... but add positional is a huge nerf and change of what is the ninja soo far... then why aren't you fighting against it? you see it's easy to say that someone don't like the jobs. but i digress and sorry for the free aggression. my point is, other jobs receive new mechanic for develop them tool and capacity in them role. we are the only one geting a nerf... why that?

another point, when you design a jobs or a class for a mmorpg, the first thing you must think about is how the player will enjoy it.... then how the positional will make the jobs more enjoyable? how the fact to add a new skill behind guts slash will make it more fun? and please, explain me why they can say that our jobs don't need more work like the other and they decide to simply not improve our main tool.... the ninjutsu!

ps: if you love soo much positional, why aren't playing monk? it's a jobs well made around it. all them system are perfectly adapted to the positional.
it will be nice for later to avoid to judge the reason of other for play a jobs, because i'm sure it don't feel nice to be treated like this.

[Allyrion]

You say I act like people who play NIN to get away from positionals shouldn't have a voice.
I didn't say that.

You, then, say that I should go play MNK because I'm fine with positionals.
You said that before and that's partially what I was responding to in my last post.

I love NIN.
I'm okay with positionals, but unlike the people who will drop NIN because it's getting positionals, I play NIN while it doesn't have any.

Why would that be?
It's because my appreciation of NIN goes beyond whether it does or doesn't have to move during its rotation.
It's because the branching rotation is different and interesting to me.
It's because I like the asymmetrical rotation meaning you actually have to monitor stuff during battle, rather than letting the combo do all the work.
It's because I like the off GCD activity and combining mudras.
It's because I like the animations and visuals.
I like that it's a hybrid between magic and melee. I like that that I can glamor wakizashi for weapons.
I like that it has a good amount of utility, especially a dps raid cooldown.

There are a lot of parts to NIN that I like. That's, in fact, why I decided to play it over MNK.
To me, it's fickle to base your identification on a Job based on if it does or doesn't have one aspect.

Then to cry about how that adding positionals will break the Job without even knowing what skills are getting it, and how it will work.
Flying off with assumptions like what potencies we might get or how balance will be because of it.
It's ridiculous to even talk about that with the information we have.

Yes, you have every right to be concerned if a change seems like it might not be good.
But don't act like your defending anything really.
Your feedback right now is empty, because it is uninformed.

Right now, there's someone who probably believes the world is going to end tomorrow.
Maybe they've believed it everyday, but let's say it does end tomorrow but the reason it ended was completely different to why they thought so.
They would still have been wrong to believe that!

The difference between being upset after trying out the changes and understanding them and before that, is critical.
Your feedback is uninformed because all of us are uninformed right now.

So I say, if you really love NIN, your image of it wouldn't suddenly be broken because maybe one or two changes aren't in your favor.
Regardless, there's no way to know how the rotation will all fit together right now to make that judgement.

At this point, you're not objectively defending something.
You're screaming at the wind.
And you're doing with huge blocks of text saying the exact same thing everytime the changes are even mentioned.
Why? It's not going to change anything and most of it is based on assumptions.


I'm interested in the changes.
I think I might like them, but I'm not really sure because I haven't actually played it yet or even have enough information to understand them.
I'm not going to say NIN will be great after 3.0. I have never said that.
Because unlike doomsayers, I acknowledge what I do not know.

Also, I appreciate the current Job, as it is, enough not to be so easily swayed by partial information on the minor changes.

So don't get me wrong.
If they didn't add positionals, I would be fine with it too. I'm playing it right now without any.
Because there's already a lot that's interesting to NIN.
But I'm not against positionals either, because it makes the game have an interesting dynamic between melee and ranged.

How it works with ninjutsu and our one combo remains to be seen, so I don't think there's much to say about that.

[silentwindfr]

i'm a bit astonished, did you read any of my post? i means i did bring information. we do have already information that are enough for know if it gonna work or not.

the fact that the refresh huton skill is behind guts slash is an information enough for know how will change our cycle only with this. and you will note i don't use information about musou sandan, since it clearly not enough for know what they means by three stage attack.

the simple fact to have the refresh huton skill behind guts slash means it will take more of 6 second for use it. it will recquire 3 action into GCD for be used... with the current combo system is far more than enough for know how it will affect our capacity. with a duration of 70 second for huton and our cycle based on duration of 30 second. explain me something, how this information is not enough for say that aeolian edge will be used far less with this skill? at best it will be used every 30 second... since we only have a windows of 4 action outside the refresh of the dot and debuff.

explain me how is not enough for understand this? how try this will change the number? time is time, wherever you are, it's something that not change. please, try to look at your own cycle now. and tell i'm wrong? instead to defend the decision of SE, maybe it's time to look at what was done so far and what they have announced.

4 information was given that was enough for know how they will affect the ninja in heavenward.

1) the refresh huton skill is into a combo behind guts slash
2) the add of a skill for transfert enemity to a teammate
3) the add of a skill for reduce the enmity of a teammate
4) the add of positional to several skill already existing.

this last one was proved and not by only me, that this decision was not good. we can argue about how it will...maybe...be good and doable.
it don't change 2 point:
- do it will bring fun to the jobs? like you said yourself, the ninja is not about positional but about manage different stuff, like the duration of our dot and debuff plus the use of the mudra systeme. how add positional that will add to our task to check our position will bring fun to our jobs? and don't hope that positional will have another effect than reduce potency if you don't match it. it's a restriction, a nerf, it was presented like this every time they have talk of it.
- the fact that a part of the ninja community did choose a jobs for what it is now, a jobs with different mechanic and ask to play differently of the dragoon and the monk. why this group of person don't deserve to be defended? why them concern about a change not adapted to the jobs is not legitimate?

please tell me? because you think we need more information? about what? which skill will have it? yeah it will help to find a way to make it work. true, i never did said it was impossible, i have used the term that it will recquire more skill.

please, don't tell me you don't have any concern about them decision concerning the ninja, or simply them... way to handle this? between yoshida that say that ninja don't need to get more mechanic from a freaking expansion!
because it was added recently, forgeting that get 10 more level is irrevelant to the fact that the jobs was added more of 6 month ago. an expansion, like the name implie, expand the class, the world, the mechanic we gonna use.

and the more brillant reason to add positional to ninja more of 6 month after it realase. because tank are the one that fight head on... this one is brillant.. i'm sorry i have never seen someone take other for idiot more than this one, i know it look rude from me and sorry for this... but, explain me how this escuse work about the fact that they did take out recently most of the positional of the dragoon? ohh and what is Sneak attack then? because it recquire to be in front, do that make us tank?

i will be blunt, add positional to every melee jobs is the worst idea ever, it don't balance, all it do it's make all melee jobs feel the same. instead to work on the difference of each jobs... they did decide to make them be the same. sorry but this sole point, worry me a loooot.

i want you to answer a question, a simple question:

why play ninja in heavenward? no it's more, why bring ninja in raid in heavenward?
indeed we still have TA buff, but it will be a jobs that will recquire far more skill for be played, the number of ninja that will be able to pull the max dps, will drop. soo far exept trick attack debuff (since goad was confirmed to be nerfed) we will become something close of the dragoon and monk.... and still have our concern about mudra lag...

explain me why this sole trouble that need to be fixed for our jobs... was not them priority? because let's be blunt, they can't fix it. since the trouble don't lie in the mechanic, but into how the game work.... if we was in other mmorpg, we will have far less trouble, make everything be on server side is them main error and was said a looot of time.

we can argue all day long about this futur change... about to have or not enough information for know how it will work. you believe what you want and it's right to believe what i want. but more important it's the function of a forum, to be used for tell our concern about something. minimize the impact of this change is your right. but believe me when i say, that i really hope to be wrong. sadly soo far all the information we did get don't bring me any hope for our jobs.

[Noelzzz]

To be honest, i think Ninja will be fine in HS, the only issue will have is mudra delay but that won't change even with europeans located servers simply because is bad design. Ninja had to be part of the new jobs without classes, casting ninjutsus as spells, focusing more on that, we have instead a thief with ninjutsu. With Summoner one of the worst class design in gaming history

[Dervy]

Silentwindfr, you keep mentioning how Aeolian Edge won't be used as much. Alright, fine. That's understandable, I think we can all agree here that this is the case. But to then say that it's somewhat going to kill the Ninja? Per Huton, you're fitting in around 3 Aeolian Edges. You'll be changing 1/3 of those for a new skill which refreshes Huton. Time for some Napkin Math.


(320*3)/70 = 13.71428571428571 PPS for Aeolian Edge

360/70 = 5.142857142857143 PPS for Raiton

In order for the new "Rotation" to be less effective, x2 Aeolian Edge + x1 Huton refresh needs to be 13.71428571428571 - 5.142857142857143 = 8.571428571428567 or more, compared to the difference between x3 Aeolian Edges 13.7 PPS, for you to see any beneficial gains. You have to remember that instead of a Huton, we're now using an additional Raiton to replace the Ninjitsu cast.

8.571428571428567 * 70 = 599.9999999999997

So as long as you're dealing more than 600 Potency in the same 70s breakdown, it's a potency Increase. If we assume that the Huton Refresh has a Potency of 220...

(320+320+220)/70 = 12.28571428571429 + 5.142857142857143 (Ration PPS) = 17.42857142857143. That's about *1.5 the PPS of just doing x3 Aeolian Edge.

[Zamii]

snip

on top of all this, theres the fact that you no longer have to do an aditional 3 part ninjutsu every 60-70s, this on its own will net you multiple GCD over the course of a full fight.

[spelley]

Just how damning is having bad ping? My ping ranges anywhere from 100-300 depending on the day. I'd love to try out a ROG/NIN but am concerned I will basically flub due to it. My aim is for the more "casual" content, probably not for anything above casual 24-man raids, don't do coils or such generally speaking (and would use my DRG/SCH if I was going to). Should I still consider NIN?