The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

[Skeith-Adeline]

If the Tank pulls a shit ton, he BETTER be aware that I'm–as a Black Mage–going to be flaring every fitting chance. As such, he should be fully competent enough to hold enmity. EVEN further, he should know that Quelling Strikes isn't an instant cooldown. Either I tank adds, or I tank Boss, or I tank nothing and no issues arouse.

Also, what they are doing, adding these speedrunning walls, really doesn't help. It adds unnecessary wait times.

[BreathlessTao]

Hey maybe your right.

But come on haven't you noticed the mass pulling done by tanks in the high level dungeons. You must have at least noticed that.

Oh, I'm not saying I haven't noticed what you describe at all, I'm just saying I don't consider them the signs of the holy trinity being broken. They're more like the signs of weak(/bad?) game/dungeon design, which is another matter altogether.

[dank1]

Spelling cause as cos is bugging me, that said in easy dungeons being able to pull the whole thing should be a thing, pulling aggro and getting reprecussions for it is a thing that does happen in harder dungeons say like coil for example
tl;dr stop doing ez mode dungeons and do stuff like coil where the trinity roles are more obvious and learn to spell cause

[ShorreasAeatose]

2. I don't understand why you think simply increasing damage is not good enough. It's so simple and it solves the problem for all mobs and all classes in one go. Adding boss mechanics is such a complex way of solving the problem which might not work and will take a lot of work. My solution can be done in 1 afternoon.

I disagree strongly. Just giving mobs progressively higher attack power is a very boring way of increasing the challenge of a fight. It makes things harder, yes, but so boring. I would much rather trash mobs actually had player-like skill builds and knew how to use them. Here's the typical gladiator trash enemy: *activate rampart before anyone is even attacking it* *walk up to the tank and use nothing but auto attacks for ten seconds* *swing fast blade once* *nothing but auto attacks for another 10 seconds* *random shield bash at a non-strategic moment* <--- this describes all trash in the game. Boring...

[Hyrist]

OP is making judgement based on being over-geared for content, referencing a thirteen year old game that's slated for death as an ideal? Bad ideas all around.

In the end, the Holy Trinity isn't dieing, not even close. Difficult content still requires heavy co-oridination and clear defined roles. These roles, however, have multiple tasks to the them, one of which is to assist with the overall damage. That's fine, the more the players are multitasking functions the less boring those roles actually become.

At this point, all current feedback should hold their tongue for the next few weeks. We're in wait-and-see mode at this point. Concerns may already be answered with Heavensward, and you may just be beating a dead horse. There is already been notice to player that there is a global ramp-up of difficulty in the open world, and if that's the case dungeons have likely been served a similar treatment.

But keep this in mind: It's already punishing for new players to access Heavensward and we will lose people over that fact. The more punishing you make this game, the fewer people are going to play it. (Studies and practical trials have already shown that difficulty balancing toward the hardcore isn't successful, you need only look as far as Wildstar for a CURRENT dynamic reference for how that is not successful. It's bad business to be referencing a model a decade or more old and assume it is still valid.) If this game fails to cater to its casual base, the whole of the game, and its players will suffer for it, please keep this in mind.)

What we do not need in this game is more 'difficulty'. What we need ins more depth. Fights that have more than a single set solution to them that are not as heavily scripted as we've seen with Coils. Job classes with interactive depth to them that amount to more than just "Follow Rotation, use off-rotation skills on cool-down to maximize DPS/Heals/Hate/Damage Reduction."

We also need a wider variety of endgame than just having the best pieces of gear come from a singular source. Not everyone wants Raiding to be their focus for top-end progression.

We don't need the game to be 'harder'. We've already pretty much have gone the gambit of how far a scripted fight can go and remain fair to console players in that regard. What we need is a game that's more intuitive, that rewards experimentation and finding differing tactics for differing compositions. And to do that, the 'difficulty' as currently defined likely has to be lightened up. The game of 'mortal-jump-rope' can only carry us so far.

[Callinon]

Spelling cause as cos is bugging me

I just read it as "cosine" and assume he has some kind of geometric tourettes.

[vp_cmc]

We had Pharos Sirius, where 3 mobs were keeping healer busy healing with next to no room for dps. Guess what happened next?

[Ashkendor]

This is cause cos you mobs don't hit hard enough. Now i notice stupid dps habits. That have also occurred. The DPS will take hate sometimes. (Usually cos they opened way to much fire before you can grab hate) Then they will keep nuking as hard as they can. Instead of stoping and letting you get hate back. Their excuse is that they are in a hurry.

I'm not sure if you're posting this because you're a DPS that's taken hate off too many newbie tanks or if you're a newbie tank that's losing hate to too many DPS. Maybe both? Honestly, if the tank has lower gear and I take hate (of course I try not to, but it happens sometimes), yeah I'm gonna keep hammering away. I'll use all of my defensive skills and abilities to keep myself alive and pray that the healer isn't asleep at the wheel, but I'm not gonna quit hitting the mob. The reason is simple - when it's dead then it stops hitting me. Even if I were to just stop and let the tank get hate back, as soon as I even glance in the mob's direction again I'm gonna end up tanking it.

Hi there

I believe you are a bit miss guided.

1. There are several skills involved in tanking and holding hate. However running into a group of 20 mobs and maybe poping cooldowns and then spamming your aoe taunt is not skill.

It seems to me that since you don't have either tank class at 50, you're the misguided one here. Holding enough hate on all of the mobs so that the healer can heal you while you're moving to the end of a huge pull actually takes some practice to get right. Sure you can just run by and facepull them all, but that results in shorter pulls that sometimes end disastrously because either you're half dead by the time you stop or half of the mobs are engaging in some fine dining with a generous helping of your healer's face. The fact that you say "maybe poping cooldowns" tells me that you haven't done a mass pull. Ever. Cooldowns are as vital to their success as a good healer is.

Do you think that tanking 3 mobs at a time takes more skill? Shield lob > Flash > Flash > Flash > tab out to watch cat videos on Youtube while I autoattack one of the mobs. Yup. Lots of skill. Honestly, the only reason we're able to do huge pulls is that right now we overgear the content by such a ridiculous amount even when it's first released. You probably won't see it at all in the Heavensward dungeons at first simply because we'll be at level for it.

2. I don't understand why you think simply increasing damage is not good enough. It's so simple and it solves the problem for all mobs and all classes in one go. Adding boss mechanics is such a complex way of solving the problem which might not work and will take a lot of work. My solution can be done in 1 afternoon.

Increasing damage and/or HP pool is the least creative solution to any "problem" with a game.

It's a cheap band-aid to "fix" something that isn't even broken in the first place.

i stopped reading when you said this.

This is my point exactly. What a broken game when the Dps can tank a Huge boss like Titan .

Titan Hard Mode stopped being a "huge boss" a really long time ago for most players. It's not 2.1 anymore.

Hell, last week I tanked the last 3% of Titan Extreme on my monk. An i129 DPS being able to hold out for a very short time against a boss that was tuned for players in i70 gear doesn't mean the game is broken - it simply means that I severely outgeared the content. Had he gotten more than one Mountain Buster on me in that time I probably would've been utter toast, but with an alert healer and judicious use of defensive cooldowns we were able to pull a victory out.

[Felis]

are you trying to punish me. Sure lower my aoe dps. What's that going to do?

You asked the defs to make enemies more stronger against you, but you don't want to be weaker at the end?

[Gilraen]

I love this thread originator's idea the XI had clearly defined roles... thinking noone else here ever played XI. In XI the go-to tank was not a tank. XI's Ninja was considered by players to be one of the best tanks... even though it didn't have a single tanking skill in it's arsenal. In a party that had Ninja tanking you NEEDED an off-tank, even if a good... no, BRILLIANT Ninja could keep their mitigation spells up indefinitely. This is because Ninja were literally Thieves with spells. So squishy that if a mob sneezed too hard in a Ninja's general direction they died. Utsusemi was a mitigation spell, but it was never meant as a tanking spell. It was an MP-free Blink, and NOONE wanted a Blink tank for the obvious reason, "When it drops, you die." That and alot of the harder monsters had attacks capable of ignoring shadows.

But that's so very beside the point. Taking the originator's argument to it's logical end Square buffs the dungeons so the over-geared can't face-roll the dungeons anymore. Where does that leave the NOT overgeared? Suddenly the dungeons, which are now challenging to old players, are schooling the crap out of the newer players. Scut minions are now all mini-bosses, bosses are now raid calibre. Clearing the dungeon in 90 minutes starts to look a little too short if a pack of three minions takes as long as 10 minutes. As has been said repeatedly, the dungeons are being cleared as fast and as hard as they are now because few are left still geared at the level of the dungeons. Further, some of them have even been nerfed to make them even more accessible (Pharos Sirius used to be a Healer's crucible, you clear it as Healer then none could ever doubt your ability). Increasing the strength of the dungeons isn't going to change things for the better, it's only going to make life harder for those that come after.