Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Except thats Vertical + Vertical.
You do the harder content to gain ilvls for your left side .. Then you do harder content for the Materia to raise the stats on your right side. You just accomplished exactly the same thing as straight vertical but added even MORE RNG to it.



No, It makes everything worse.
Since now you have to have a specific set for specific encounters because certain bonuses make those encounters easier.

Give me an example of a set like that, before you say: Nah uh! Because X! You kind of need to provide examples. Especially examples of said gear "You need for a specific encounter."

Stuff/but not bad stuff

You don't want it to be truley balanced, classes should be better at "some things" then others, its trade offs.

For example, make Summoner have the same overall DPS as BLM. However its downside is its damage over time and pet management. Its upside is all spells should be instant cast. Those are TRADE Offs. Completely different play-styles.


In most Vertical-Horizontal Progression games, I only had 1 set of gear for everything. I pretty much made the gear towards "My Playstyle" and I didn't carry any other sets. Why? I min-maxed my set to gear towards how I like to play. Most people who carry more bags are not fond of picking a play-style and are unsure of how they want to play. They feel like they need something for everything just to be 1% better. When even though they are statistically 1% better they play worse because its not their play-style.

[Craiger]

Give me an example of a set like that, before you say: Nah uh! Because X! You kind of need to provide examples. Especially examples of said gear "You need for a specific encounter."



You don't want it to be truley balanced, classes should be better at "some things" then others, its trade offs.

For example, make Summoner have the same overall DPS as BLM. However its downside is its damage over time and pet management. Its upside is all spells should be instant cast. Those are TRADE Offs. Completely different play-styles.


In most Vertical-Horizontal Progression games, I only had 1 set of gear for everything. I pretty much made the gear towards "My Playstyle" and I didn't carry any other sets. Why? I min-maxed my set to gear towards how I like to play. Most people who carry more bags are not fond of picking a play-style and are unsure of how they want to play. They feel like they need something for everything just to be 1% better. When even though they are statistically 1% better they play worse because its not their play-style.

The bold part is the whole problem...

Maybe you are okay with never having any progression in the gear, but I'm sure at least 90% of the community wouldn't be okay with it... And I know that many people have said they want Horizontal progression, but trust me, most don't know what it really entails and/or just don't know how it will play like once it's a real thing. People might even like it for a while, but then suddenly everyone will grow bored and leave, and I predict FFXIV would've been Free-to-play and nearly dead by now if it had horizontal progression.

I would maybe okay with gear staying relevant forever, IF you have to upgrade it somehow, by doing new raids... That way you keep your gear and special effects, but still have something to play for, and not just glamour.

[Sylve]

Words.

The Jobs themselves have trade offs.

Monks have the best continuous DPS, but it takes a lot of time to get that DPS flowing, any mistakes cause a restart to the whole rotation.
Dragoons deal damage in larger chunks than Monks but have a spikier output.
Bards are incredibly mobile, able to DPS at range while moving while providing TP/MP regens at the cost of personal damage (mitigated through proper use of cooldowns)
Black Mages deal the largest chunks of damage in single blows but they suffer from either HUGE damage or NO damage.
Ninja DPS strong all round, but suffers from a bit of a setup time, falling somewhere between the Monk and Dragoon.
Summoners can maintain almost full DPS on multiple targets at once, but suffers in shorter fights where the DoTs can't do their work (like adds and trash mobs).

Theres your tradeoffs.

I only had 1 set of gear for everything.

Congratulations on successfully ignoring the greater majority of the games you played then.
MMOs are about loot. Even the much vaunted FFXI. Hell, moreso there. No one did NMs because the fights were fun. They did them because of that 1% chance to drop something they needed to finish out a set.

So you're happy to get 1 set and never upgrade again? Congrats, theres games out there just for you. Why don't you go play them if you hate XIVs gear so much?

PS, Error processing your request: Examples cannot be given because your hypothetical sets and bonuses do not exist, thus a very general example was given.

The bold part is the whole problem...

Maybe you are okay with never having any progression in the gear, but I'm sure at least 90% of the community wouldn't be okay with it... And I know that many people have said they want Horizontal progression, but trust me, most don't know what it really entails and/or just don't know how it will play like once it's a real thing. People might even like it for a while, but then suddenly everyone will grow bored and leave, and I predict FFXIV would've been Free-to-play and nearly dead by now if it had horizontal progression.

I would maybe okay with gear staying relevant forever, IF you have to upgrade it somehow, by doing new raids... That way you keep your gear and special effects, but still have something to play for, and not just glamour.

Except that in your example the gear is NOT relevant forever, as you would be going into newer, harder content to raise the item levels. Which is what we do right now .. But without set bonuses to anchor us to old gear.
In such a world gear would be even more bland than it is now, because everyone would have one set, and one set only that just got a number buff every other patch.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Congratulations on successfully ignoring the greater majority of the games you played then.
MMOs are about loot. Even the much vaunted FFXI. Hell, moreso there. No one did NMs because the fights were fun. They did them because of that 1% chance to drop something they needed to finish out a set.

So you're happy to get 1 set and never upgrade again? Congrats, theres games out there just for you. Why don't you go play them if you hate XIVs gear so much?

PS, Error processing your request: Examples cannot be given because your hypothetical sets and bonuses do not exist, thus a very general example was given.

Thank you for going through exactly what I explained, it really makes me feel like you can read my posts.

Now, "Successfully Ignoring?" I basicly got the best of "My Playstyle" in every slot because most horizontal progression games I have played are Horizontal+Vertical Progression, however just because something had more stats did not immediately make it a better piece of gear, especially since I liked to use certain items over others because they were more geared towards "My" play-style. Since I knew my play style well I played a lot better then people with better gear sets then me per encounter, because I knew the weaknesses and strengths of my own style of play and gear.

No, It makes everything worse.
Since now you have to have a specific set for specific encounters because certain bonuses make those encounters easier.

And since those examples don't exist - your argument before is completely invalid. Thank you for whining about it for no reason then. =)

Except that in your example the gear is NOT relevant forever, as you would be going into newer, harder content to raise the item levels. Which is what we do right now .. But without set bonuses to anchor us to old gear.
In such a world gear would be even more bland than it is now, because everyone would have one set, and one set only that just got a number buff every other patch.

"What is this one set?"

AGAIN, your talking out of your rear. NOT GIVING EXAMPLES.

Error 404, examples not given. Invalid Argument! =D See how it feels?

In Everquest II, there were some cool items that have been good for multiple expansions just because of how fun the items were, the guys still didn't want to give it up for new gear because of how fun it made them play.

[Renik]

snip

Resource management, the most iconic skill of the RPG genre, while Vertical is about equipping bigger numbers, unless you're a maxer who cares about minimal changes, which most people is not.

That said, i know a full horizontal system can't work in this game and with this generation of gamers, and hybrid or diagonal model based on choices (illusion or not), upgrades, and new ilvl every 6 months-1 year, of course this requires the addition of not overpowered specialized stats, without these horizontal progression can not exist.

[Craiger]

...

Except that in your example the gear is NOT relevant forever, as you would be going into newer, harder content to raise the item levels. Which is what we do right now .. But without set bonuses to anchor us to old gear.
In such a world gear would be even more bland than it is now, because everyone would have one set, and one set only that just got a number buff every other patch.

Fair enough.

I didn't really think it over much, I just wanted to make it known that I'm not against all forms of horizontal progression... but not 100% Horizontal, so more of a hybrid.

I'm perfectly fine with how the game is right now in terms of vertical progression. We could still have more diversity and options for gear, but there should still be an increment of ilvls IMO

[Sylve]

Lots of words

1} Yes, ignoring. You deliberately chose to ignore every other piece of gear in favor of your chosen set, in your own words, for the entire life of the game.

2}I gave an example based on your hypothetical horizontal progression involving bonuses on gear that were not stats. You have yet to give any kind examples other than to laud what other games have supposedly done.

3} That statement wasn't even directed at you, hence why you aren't quoted.

[Sapphic]

Resource management, the most iconic skill of the RPG genre, while Vertical is about equipping bigger numbers, unless you're a maxer who cares about minimal changes, which most people is not.

That said, i know a full horizontal system can't work in this game and with this generation of gamers, and hybrid or diagonal model based on choices (illusion or not), upgrades, and new ilvl every 6 months-1 year, of course this requires the addition of not overpowered specialized stats, without these horizontal progression can not exist.

Optimising with horizontal creates bigger numbers, whether its boosted heals or DPS. Then when you have that set, what do you strive for next? Well the improved "horizontal" gear that comes with the next content update, hence making it Vertical with the illusion of it being horizontal. Just like FFXI, albeit there are items that are a must have, Eponas ring for example for melee from Aby.

[tymora]

If they put in elemental, weapon resistances again, horizontal will be viable. But we players are apparently too dumb to handle that.

[Allyrion]

Except that in your example the gear is NOT relevant forever, as you would be going into newer, harder content to raise the item levels. Which is what we do right now .. But without set bonuses to anchor us to old gear.
In such a world gear would be even more bland than it is now, because everyone would have one set, and one set only that just got a number buff every other patch.

I don't agree.
One set should be upgraded through various achievements and possibly reverted like how we'll be able to glamour any version of the relic.
It should be customizable in terms of looks as well as stats, with the augmented stats being more interesting than what we have now.
Most of the FF series and SE games don't even let you equip a full set, you add special effects aren't just bigger numbers through accessories.
There will always be BiS, but things like WoW's talent system shows you can still give empowerments that are balanced but contain play style differences.

One of the best parts of FFXIV is that you can play all the classes on one character.
You can change Jobs at any time (outside of combat) and you'll have different animations and gameplay.
Everything you accomplish is saved to that character and nothing is ever really lost.

That's what I want for gear. To be able to customize it a little, and the item level would increase through certain conditions.
If RNG is needed, maybe you have a chance for your gear to be powered up equal to what would've been the drop chance before.
There's much more fluidity and freedom there and nothing is ever lost.

It's very similar to the current system but the sets are consolidated and, thus, gear becomes an extension of your character (which is what I think it should be).
I don't really care for the whole wanting to kill this boss to get a new pair of pants that randomly appears in a chest.
It's conceptually different that you defeat a powerful enemy and your gear is empowered with that victory
The focus changes to empowering your character instead of basically going shopping in a raid.