Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

[Sapphic]

The horizontal progression is the only that makes skill be meaningful, with vertical it's all about bigger numbers.

The first part is a fallacy, the second applied/s to FFXI as much as vertical progression. A melee having capped haste and double/triple attack for the TP set and AP, relevant stat and WS accuracy/damage boost way outperformed someone who was in the same "level" of gear with suboptimal stats and bonuses on the gear. Just as a healer out performed when stacking the correct bonuses for each gear swap on macros for each ability, A +cure potency capped WHM for curing was able to use lower level cures thus reducing mana consumption massively, an enfeeble stacked RDM was more effective than one that was geared like a melee job.

Your idea of horizontel not having anything to do with the numerical output of the jobs and it being based on "skill" is a complete fabrication.

[Renik]

snip

Resource management, the most iconic skill of the RPG genre, while Vertical is about equipping bigger numbers, unless you're a maxer who cares about minimal changes, which most people is not.

That said, i know a full horizontal system can't work in this game and with this generation of gamers, and hybrid or diagonal model based on choices (illusion or not), upgrades, and new ilvl every 6 months-1 year, of course this requires the addition of not overpowered specialized stats, without these horizontal progression can not exist.

[Aeyis]

The first part is a fallacy, the second applied/s to FFXI as much as vertical progression. A melee having capped haste and double/triple attack for the TP set and AP, relevant stat and WS accuracy/damage boost way outperformed someone who was in the same "level" of gear with suboptimal stats and bonuses on the gear. Just as a healer out performed when stacking the correct bonuses for each gear swap on macros for each ability, A +cure potency capped WHM for curing was able to use lower level cures thus reducing mana consumption massively, an enfeeble stacked RDM was more effective than one that was geared like a melee job.

Your idea of horizontel not having anything to do with the numerical output of the jobs and it being based on "skill" is a complete fabrication.

Fallacy, you say? You alter numbers in your example so that one always vastly exceeds the other.

What if haste and double attack had similar damage increase ratios, but they had different effects? (a flashy second attack,different from the normal hit for double attack, and a much higher normal hit ratio for haste).

Now suddenly your example against horizontal progression falls flat on its face.



Even in the case of numbers being apart, as long as the numbers are not apart in a huge way; it does not matter which a player chooses.

EDIT: Also, one thing I don't understand with horizontal progression... How would they even keep making new and interesting gear that people would even want? Maybe I'm missing something, but if everything have the same level, and only different stats and whatnot, why would you even want to change your gear once you get a combination that is better than everything else? And trust me, there would be gear like that.

How would they make new and interesting gear with vertical progression? Its the same item with the same stats, but just bigger numbers.

^Its not a problem of the gear system, but gearing itself. Altho horizontal would actually make it easier; since you can provide more options at the same ''ilvl''.

[Magis]

Horizontal. Then gear actually means something and can expand in more interesting ways than just "oh look my ilvl is 32113, that's 10 points more than my last item!".

[Craiger]

I would like there to be more options for gear to choose from... And that the stats would be more interesting.

That being said, full on horizontal progression have some big problems too...

If it's truly horizontal, people would ultimately start to question: "What's the point of this? I don't get anything out of this".... It's one thing having lots of different options for you to get, but having the same level of gear throughout the game, would kill it in the long run IMO.

How would endgame raids work?(honest question) If everyone is wearing the same level of gear, then what happens to the raids when they come out in a patch? Is it going to be too easy for hardcore players, too hard for normal players, or would they have echo in much earlier and in more increments? Right now, hardcore players beat it with mostly gear from previous patch, and maybe with crafted gear if available... Then more and more groups are able to beat it as they gear up with gear from the "easier" turns and from Tomestones. Could work with echo, but god that sounds sad...

Horizontal sounds kinda good on paper, but trust me, it would make FFXIV history...

EDIT: Also, one thing I don't understand with horizontal progression... How would they even keep making new and interesting gear that people would even want? Maybe I'm missing something, but if everything have the same level, and only different stats and whatnot, why would you even want to change your gear once you get a combination that is better than everything else? And trust me, there would be gear like that.

[Lyndis]

I would prefer a horizontal gear development.

There's no use arguing whether it exists or not because game developers acknowledge that it does. Other games do it and it's definitely possible.

I just hate doing the same grind every two months just for a slightly bigger number. I'd much rather have multiple types of content being released every two months with different gear that suits them. Then have your best in slot gear but have them take mastering all forms of content and a time consuming path to get to similar to the relic quests.

[Meier]

Horizontal/hybrid

[Iromi]

Horizontal/hybrid as well. ^^

[Joshy]

Horizontal all the way.

[Sylve]

Guild Wars 2 has the 'horizontal' system you want.
Ascended is the best. Period. Not even an expansion will bring anything that's better than Ascended.
Berserkers Ascended is the only good Ascended, or any gear, period though. Because Maths.

Sure, i could build my Ranger as a Power/DoT damage/Toughness setup and clear content with my friends with it.
If i want to do a Fractal with people i DONT know, not a chance. Berserker + Greatsword or GTFO.

Why is that? Because the maths says the damage done by Berserker sets blows every other combo out of the water.
More DPS is all anyone cares about. Bigger numbers = better numbers =faster runs = more loot.

I'm not against the diagonal progression some have mentioned, technically we have it already. Dungeon sets have different stat combos than Tower/Tome sets and Coil sets.
All we need now is some form of drop that we can use to boost the Dungeon ilvl to match the current tier, Much like we do with Carbontwines and Carboncoats. Then we'd have some real diversity in stats, a choice or a sacrifice.
Same DPS, Different delivery.
Let players make the choice if they want a Skill/Spell Speed+Crit build, or a DET focused build.
Hell, add in stats that affect TP Regen speeds, MP regen ticks or stats that are purely proc based. For example, a stat that gave a small percentage to MultiHit with a skill or Auto Attack.

But don't take away the ilvl gains per patch. We *need* new things to strive for and improve ourselves with.
Do you really think people would do Savage Alexander if the ilvl for the drops was the same as Story Mode?
Savage Coil is barely cleared, not because players cant but because the gear is/was the same and people didn't want to do harder content without the reward of higher tiers of gear.
I don't understand why people feel like their time is wasted by new tiers of gear.
The old gear served its purpose and is now vanity. There's a new set to try and get, which will eventually become vanity.

Those of us who farmed full sets of i90 Artifact gear don't have to deal with the RNG of getting the Antique Tokens.
Because we farmed Darklight when it was top tier, we don't have to deal with the RNG to pick up the set for vanity now, as newer players would need to.
And so forth.