RIP Ninja

[Viridiana]

Should of said for ninjutsu damage and not overall damage to look at the overall damage outlook
At my gear level Raiton is about 30-40 of my dps depending the amount of crits including the use of foes.
Lets just take a simplistic look at fuma and raiton. in a 3min situation.
My minimum hit for fuma is around 600 (lowest i saw was 585) with the slashing debuff non crit raiton's minimum is around 800 non crit all of these are without party buff

so lets look at this in the most simplistic in a vacuum look
5 casts of either raiton or fuma
4k damage for raiton 800 each
3k for fuma using 600 each with slashing debuff.
so about at 25% loss of ninjutsu damage.

so lets just take my lowest number for raiton dps if raiton brings 30 dps fuma brings about 22.5 dps which will only get worse come expansion.
obviously this is speculation since we have no info

Lets say we never have to recast Huton. in 3 min that adds another 3 fuma/raiton

again 800 for raiton so about 7200 damage
again 600 for fuma so about 4800 damage
a difference of about 33% in ninjutsu damage.

Once again none of the above numbers were using foes or any buffs at all.

A number of problems with this. One, if you're getting minimum 800 damage on a Raiton with no buffs, then just having poison up means you shoud be getting 600 minimum on Fuma even without the slashing debuff. My Fuma will never fall below 600 damage with no buffs up other than poisons, with my minimum unbuffed Raiton being about 756 (Raiton being unaffected by poisons or DE). If your minimum Raiton is 44 above mine, you should never be seeing 585 Fuma Shurikens. So the base difference is less than the 25% you're saying it is, unless all of your Raiton casts are somehow getting Foe Requiem. There should only be about a 12% difference before accounting for Foe.

Second, in your last paragraph you compare 9 Raiton casts (7,200 damage is 9x800) against 8 Fuma casts (8x600 is 4,800). Correcting for this, it should be 6,400 vs 4,800. 4,800 is 75% of 6,400, which is the same (exaggerated) 25% you got in the first paragraph. Which makes sense, because the % change isn't going to change as you keep going.

Now, if you factor in DE, FR, and Venoms, you have about 316.8 Fuma potency vs 396 Raiton potency. That's a .8:1 ratio. So you should lose about 20% of your Ninjutsu dps if you have Foe Requiem up for every Raiton cast. Every cast that you don't have it up for moves it closer to the 12% I mentioned in my first paragraph, and Battle Voice will shift it slightly back towards the 20%.

But we're talking about probably ~17% loss on what's currently, according to your numbers, 30 DPS. So, a 5 DPS loss at current gear levels (maybe 6 or so because I doubt either of us are BIS). Even if our DPS from Ninjutsu quadruples in HW, that'd be about 20-24 DPS lost out of probably over 1k DPS. So, a 2% loss of total DPS? That's not huge.

[Pluvia]

A number of problems with this. One, if you're getting minimum 800 damage on a Raiton with no buffs, then just having poison up means you shoud be getting 600 minimum on Fuma even without the slashing debuff. My Fuma will never fall below 600 damage with no buffs up other than poisons, with my minimum unbuffed Raiton being about 756 (Raiton being unaffected by poisons or DE). If your minimum Raiton is 44 above mine, you should never be seeing 585 Fuma Shurikens. So the base difference is less than the 25% you're saying it is, unless all of your Raiton casts are somehow getting Foe Requiem. There should only be about a 12% difference before accounting for Foe.

Second, in your last paragraph you compare 9 Raiton casts (7,200 damage is 9x800) against 8 Fuma casts (8x600 is 4,800). Correcting for this, it should be 6,400 vs 4,800. 4,800 is 75% of 6,400, which is the same (exaggerated) 25% you got in the first paragraph. Which makes sense, because the % change isn't going to change as you keep going.

Now, if you factor in DE, FR, and Venoms, you have about 316.8 Fuma potency vs 396 Raiton potency. That's a .8:1 ratio. So you should lose about 20% of your Ninjutsu dps if you have Foe Requiem up for every Raiton cast. Every cast that you don't have it up for moves it closer to the 12% I mentioned in my first paragraph, and Battle Voice will shift it slightly back towards the 20%.

But we're talking about probably ~17% loss on what's currently, according to your numbers, 30 DPS. So, a 5 DPS loss at current gear levels (maybe 6 or so because I doubt either of us are BIS). Even if our DPS from Ninjutsu quadruples in HW, that'd be about 20-24 DPS lost out of probably over 1k DPS. So, a 2% loss of total DPS? That's not huge.

you're correct in the fact i added in an extra Raiton fixed did a hasty job and extra work for nothing LOL I sat on the dummy getting for 10min spamming ninjutsu 585 was the lowest hit i got for fuma which i assumed could of been from the slashing debuff falling off right as fuma hit the dummy. Edit:Nope just tested it again 15sec on slashing hit a 582 fuma on the dummy just now
Too early in the morning for math.

[Allyrion]

Perhaps you should read their posts then, because most people who aren't happy with what they heard from the Live Letter do state their reasons.
It's also not so much about being worried that we'll be a lot weaker than other melees, it's about other melees getting new, awesome mechanics while we only get more of the same nerfed Raiton - and get to deal with positionals on top. NIN is the only job for which they not only didn't announce anything exciting, they even mentioned that we'll get positional requirements slapped on our skills. That part doesn't bother me much, but it's still not good news.

That's mostly just complaining about the presentation.
We don't know anything about the new weaponskills down in the video so we don't know how NIN will play post-3.0.

Secondly, why would NIN get the same treatment as every other class when it came out much more recently?
They're adding mechanics to Jobs that are 2 years old as opposed to NIN's 1 year.
They would even been already working on Heavenward by the time NIN was released, which is probably why it's been in a good place.

Even so, NIN is probably not going to get less abilities leveling up.
That means we're going to have new stuff to play with, but it might not be as mechanically ground changing because you shouldn't add mechanics just for the sake of it.

NIN has been out for ONE tier of raiding as opposed to THREE for every other class.
That's not nearly enough testing to see how the job moved and developed.
I would much rather wait so they make sure they have a cohesive design direction for NIN than them just adding stuff for the sake of it.
Because if we get rushed flawed mechanics, then we'll probably be stuck with them for a while.

I guess that's easy for me to say because I, personally, think added positionals are a good thing.

[Viridiana]

you're correct in the fact i added in an extra Raiton fixed did a hasty job and extra work for nothing LOL I sat on the dummy getting for 10min spamming ninjutsu 585 was the lowest hit i got for fuma which i assumed could of been from the slashing debuff falling off right as fuma hit the dummy. Edit:Nope just tested it again 15sec on slashing hit a 582 fuma on the dummy just now

Ten minutes is nowhere near enough time on a dummy to establish damage ranges for two separate ninjutsu, unless you get extremely lucky with hitting min/max early.

If you're getting 582 Fuma Shuriken, then your minimum Fuma Shuriken is at least 24 below mine. Which means your minimum Raiton should be below mine, as well (because that's how math works). So your minimum Raiton would have to be in the 720 range. That, or you aren't using venoms.

Edit: In fact, a 582 Fuma with DE up means that you're 24 damage below what I can do without using DE.

[Pluvia]

Ten minutes is nowhere near enough time on a dummy to establish damage ranges for two separate ninjutsu, unless you get extremely lucky with hitting min/max early.

If you're getting 582 Fuma Shuriken, then your minimum Fuma Shuriken is at least 24 below mine. Which means your minimum Raiton should be below mine, as well (because that's how math works). So your minimum Raiton would have to be in the 720 range. That, or you aren't using venoms.

Edit: In fact, a 582 Fuma with DE up means that you're 24 damage below what I can do without using DE.

I could sit here all day I'm telling you right now 802 is raitons min my highest non crit is 871.

[Viridiana]

I could sit here all day I'm telling you right now 802 is raitons min my highest non crit is 871.

That's not right. I know that's not right, because it isn't enough variance between your max and your min. Max/min should be close to 21/19=1.105. Your numbers are less than 1.1. . .1.08, in fact. So, no, that's not your full damage spread.

[AzraelX]

can i ask how adding postionals to ninja is a good thing? im just curious. isn't the long/laggy madras enough. I just hope its like 2 rear positionals.

[Pluvia]

That's not right. I know that's not right, because it isn't enough variance between your max and your min. Max/min should be close to 21/19=1.105. Your numbers are less than 1.1. . .1.08, in fact. So, no, that's not your full damage spread.

876 now going to keep going i'll let you know what it maxes as and i'll let you know if the min goes down Edit: new min 795 funny becasue i've hit so many 802s in the last 30min then finally hit 795 fuma i figured out the issue with fuma for some reason my venom was off when I logged in. All in all was early in the morning and hadn't had my coffee yet lol

[Viridiana]

i figured out the issue with fuma for some reason my venom was off when I logged in. All in all was early in the morning and hadn't had my coffee yet lol

That would account for it. I feel like I mentioned that a few posts back.

But, it looks like you almost have your full spread on Raiton. I predict you have maybe 3 more points of variance, tops, and it can be a pain to hit them.

[Allyrion]

can i ask how adding postionals to ninja is a good thing? im just curious. isn't the long/laggy madras enough. I just hope its like 2 rear positionals.

Because positionals add a 3rd dimension to melee combat, and is a great hybrid between action combat and tab-target fighting.
Because standing at the back of a mob pressing buttons on a boss and only moving for aoe is dumb when you actually have such a interesting mechanic.

Also, because I think it actually suits NIN more than any other Job.
NIN should be precise about it's attacks and movements. I can justify attacking from the flank because a ninja attacking from multiple angles is iconic.
And most importantly, why should the class with a passive movement buff be the one that sits in one place the most?
I'm fine with there being a class with no positionals for variety, but I don't think that class should ever have been NIN.
It's the fastest moving job in the game and it's the melee that stands still the most.

That's why I think positionals are a good idea.
But I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
Mudra lag only really bothers me when it's the 3-Mudra cast. Which they reduced since we won't have to re-cast Fuuton.
Suiton once a minute isn't that bad.