Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

[Elusana_Celah]

So a challenge without superior gear rewards is a challenge not worth taking, despite the desire for a challenge?

Actually I tried very hard to get people to do savage coil but the amount of people who will bother with it are very slim due to there being no gear reward at least on my server. I really want to clear the savage coils but meh. If someone cries for a challenge but won't touch challenging content if there's no superior gear rewards then I question why they are crying for a challenge in the first place? Do they merely want to run around with their gear for the sake of epeen and public bragging and enjoy the challenge simply because it locks other players out from having what they have? Then that is rather sad. It makes me wonder how many people are really like me and, while loot is cool to have, I get my personal satisfaction just beating the challenging content which is why I mentioned earlier that not being able to beat T13 before echo nerf was devastating to me.

[Gilthas]

Do they merely want to run around with their gear for the sake of epeen and public bragging and enjoy the challenge simply because it locks other players out from having what they have?

Yep.

In the vast majority of cases, people that complain about content being made easier are just mad that the "casual scum" will now have access to the stuff that they have.

Probably the real reason that SE nerfed FCoB was because the time between the last big patch and the expansion was pretty big. Most non-raiding players already had all their Poetics gear so they made Coil easier so they could draw these players to it. That and they probably want more people to get access to the storyline in Coil. It's very telling that the next endgame raid will have a "normal" and "hard" versions.

[Zumi]

Gear motivates the majority of the playerbase to do content that is just the way it is. Personally I would like to do savage mode because I like to do the hardest content but finding 7 other people that will want to do savage mode is very hard. Unlike FCoB where it is very easy to find players to do the content because it drops gear.

Which is why in Havensward the savage modes will drop the best gear so many more people will want to do it.

[Ablongman]

Gear motivates the majority of the playerbase to do content that is just the way it is. Personally I would like to do savage mode because I like to do the hardest content but finding 7 other people that will want to do savage mode is very hard. Unlike FCoB where it is very easy to find players to do the content because it drops gear.

Which is why in Havensward the savage modes will drop the best gear so many more people will want to do it.

That's very facile logic though, isn't it? "It is that way because it is that way, so it will continue to be that way."

People are herded into FCoB to get gear because they can't get that gear, which is often BiS, any other way. That's the expectation that's been created, but it doesn't mean it HAS to be that way.

Look at it from this perspective: If power (gear) was all players wanted, F2P games would directly sell power in their shops. A few do, yes, but not all do. Yet their shops sell. What do they sell? Things people want. Put those things in raids, and suddenly you have player motivation!

If FCoB dropped unique glamour items, if the achievements unlocked alternative animations and spell effects, if it dropped unique mounts, wouldn't people do them?

Heck, we don't need to go that far. EX Primals are being farmed to oblivion to this day, and have been for months and months. Would you struggle to find an EX farm party? Not at all. Why not? It's not because they award power. It's because they award something people want that ISN'T power. They've been desirable for longer than FCoB.

Just food for thought! I don't disagree that Savage is not very popular outside of statics because of its reward scheme. I don't think that means gear is the only solution, because we've seen that's not true.

[Niwashi]

I don't disagree that Savage is not very popular outside of statics because of its reward scheme. I don't think that means gear is the only solution, because we've seen that's not true.

Savage mode was created for a specific reason and that was to offer extra challenge to those who want it. It's not very popular because in fact most players don't want challenge. But it's there for the few who do. There's a limit to how much you should try to herd people into doing what they don't like to do in a game. If it's designed to be highly challenging, then it shouldn't have exclusive rewards, because exclusive rewards would force everyone who wants those rewards into having to do Savage Mode whether they want to or not. That in turn forces nerfing "savage" mode to be accessible to everyone, at which point it no longer serves its purpose for the people it was originally designed for. This holds true regardless of whether those exclusive rewards are powerful gear, cosmetic gear, mounts, or whatever. So long as they're both desirable and exclusive, Savage mode won't stay savage.

What it can offer, however, is a faster way to get some of the rewards that would be a long grind or rarer drop elsewhere. That can provide some real reward for the people who do the harder version without forcing it on those who don't want to.

[Ablongman]

If it's designed to be highly challenging, then it shouldn't have exclusive rewards, because exclusive rewards would force everyone who wants those rewards into having to do Savage Mode whether they want to or not. That in turn forces nerfing "savage" mode to be accessible to everyone, at which point it no longer serves its purpose for the people it was originally designed for. This holds true regardless of whether those exclusive rewards are powerful gear, cosmetic gear, mounts, or whatever. So long as they're both desirable and exclusive, Savage mode won't stay savage.

What it can offer, however, is a faster way to get some of the rewards that would be a long grind or rarer drop elsewhere. That can provide some real reward for the people who do the harder version without forcing it on those who don't want to.

Well, I don't think exclusive rewards would be an issue, provided those exclusive rewards do not provide a numerical advantage that widens the gap between those who are capable of pulling off gear-adjusted Savage versus those who cannot in areas where gear numbers would matter (i.e. FCoB).

But I do think having an alternative that checks persistence rather than skill to obtain those items would be reasonable. What is key, in my opinion, is that the power-as-reward method is problematic and should be abolished entirely from progression content.

One possibility would be to replace the stuff in FCoB-equivalent content with other desirable items for players who clear it (including glamours so they can distinguish themselves), keep power rewards as tomestone gear that trickles equally across all who do "endgame" content (and incrementally ease the cap to allow people who are late to a tier to meet gear requirements to join endgame raiding), and suddenly you have a playing field where the skillfull can set themselves apart without an unnecessary power gap. A skilled player can already maximize a character's potential and do far more than an average or subpar player, so to stack a huge power differential on top of that, like what we had prior to the WoD weekly, is just unnecessary.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

At the end of the day, people want shiny pixel armor and weapons to show their epeen to the world.
Savage is the proof of this.

"I want a challenge because I am cool!"
"Here, have this Savage T7"
"Butbut does it drop shinies"
"No."
"Then it does not count!"

Challenge should be its own reward.

I would agree with this if the hardest content in the game were solo content. But like most (likely all) MMOs, the hardest content requires not just a skilled player, but a whole team of skilled players who are familiar with each other's gameplay.

Many players have real lives that don't allow for their gaming to follow the sort of regular predictable schedule that would make it possible to join a static group. No matter how skilled they are at the game, their job, and the specific content they're trying to complete, they can still only complete content that can be done by one skilled player and 7 other random unknown people that joined their PUG. The only content that's available to all paying players is content that's PUGable.

That leaves the only options as:

1) Make the hardest content in the game easy enough to do in a pick up group. Of course, this is going to anger any statics who want challenging group content.

2) Exclude most of their paying customers from any access to the content they're paying for.

3) Make sure all the rewards are available through easier content, and that the most challenging content simply provides somewhat faster access to them, along with the pride and enjoyment that comes from the challenge itself.

You know, it's not like people are FORCED to play this game. If someone does not meet the requirements to clear endgame, well, I am sorry, but that is how it is.

It is like whining I cannot be world champion in long jump because I do not have time to train, but I want to win the prize anyway.
At this point, why not removing gear and drops completely? Let's give every piece of gear, every title, and every mount to everyone, but hey, let's leave the hard encounters in the game. Everyone will be happy!

[Neuflune]

At the end of the day, people want shiny pixel armor and weapons to show their epeen to the world.
Savage is the proof of this.

"I want a challenge because I am cool!"
"Here, have this Savage T7"
"Butbut does it drop shinies"
"No."
"Then it does not count!"

Challenge should be its own reward.

This makes me very curious about English servers, because on Carbuncle I regularly see Savage groups in party finder.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

This makes me very curious about English servers, because on Carbuncle I regularly see Savage groups in party finder.

I am sure that there are servers where this happens.

But it is definitely not the norm, at least on English ones.

[Nestama]

This makes me very curious about English servers, because on Carbuncle I regularly see Savage groups in party finder.

For T7 Savage though? T7 Savage is supposedly the hardest Turn due to how absolutely unforgiving it is and how perfect everyone needs to be.