[Suggestion] SAMURAI

[Shippuu]

I think that he feels that it fits DD and that some people would like it to be DD could be enough. I feel the armor will be fine being like dragoon (who has full metal AF, also seems fitting that a polearm user would share with Samurai someone who would have love for polearms :P).

See, the main problem with SAM being a DPS now, is that it means if/when it gets added, as a DPS it's going to be wearing this armor:

Instead of this armor:

The former is the DRG dps armor of a new set in Heavensward, the latter is the Tank armor of the same set thematically. You tell me which one suits a Samurai better.

Whether Yoshi P feels it should be a DPS doesn't change the fact it was still in the running for a tank before, and is still the strongest candidate for a future tank.

[silentwindfr]

Yoshida himself have said that for him Samurai is more a Damage Dealer... for the armor? a chain armor like the dragoon.
like i have said before, no point to have 2 jobs doing the same role with almost the same weapon....

we have still all the blunt weapon and a percing weapon that aren't used by the tank. a blunt weapon will create a bit of synergy with the monk.... finally, a tank based on the parry is nice... but outside this? i means what will be the main particularity of the samurai? skillchain (like a lot have ask, me inclued)? that more dps than tank.... and a reactive tank based only on parry will be bad, because spell can't be parry.

soo far the particularity of the three tank:
- paladin, high resistance & a lot of CD
- warrior, high hp pool & high generation of threat.

we don't know yet for the dark knight but probably something around the magic. the samurai as tank will bring nothing new, the parry itself is not a particularity important enough, especially since the warrior and the dark knight rely on it too.

See, the main problem with SAM being a DPS now, is that it means if/when it gets added, as a DPS it's going to be wearing this armor:

Instead of this armor:

The former is the DRG dps armor of a new set in Heavensward, the latter is the Tank armor of the same set thematically. You tell me which one suits a Samurai better.

Whether Yoshi P feels it should be a DPS doesn't change the fact it was still in the running for a tank before, and is still the strongest candidate for a future tank.

i have a great news for you, until now, the one that decide what will be what is still Yoshi-P. other point interesting at noted, if the samurai come out as dps, he will probably share the same armor than the dragoon. finally, the actual armor of the dragoon are made only for the dragoon... then use them as comparaison of if is adapted for a jobs not even ready to be released.

people really need to stop to add tank that will bring nothing new to the game, indeed Dark Knight did fit more into the story of heavenward, but i feel the real trouble was to make the samurai really unique as tank. and like said this game lack a damage dealer with 2 hand sword when it's a classic into the franchise, then don't hope to much for a samurai tank.

your wish =/= what Yoshi-p see for the game. or we will have get a hunt different, a persona housing different and many stuff very different of what we have get soo far.

[EdwinLi]

Oh definitely. It's my opinion the 3.X series will end in possibly a unification of the Eorzean alliance and the Dravanian horde. Just in time for the Empire to return at force. What better way for Eorzea to fend back the empire and reclaim Ala Mhigo than with the help of the dragons? I feel we'll be resolving the conflict between Ishgard and the Dravanians throughout 3.X. With 4.0 being set to reclaim or having already reclaimed Ala Mhigo.

I still feel we have little reason to go to Othard (Eastern continent) There's too much at risk for Eorzean to fight a war across the planet when the Empire is still very much at their door. We'd sooner hit the near east land of Thavnair and Radz-at-tan first.

Well we may or may not get the entire Othard area but only a small part of it or may just skip a good amount of Othard and head right into Ala Mhigo for a Dungeon to reclaim it from the Garleans during the Battle of Ala Mhigo.

Also, i don't think we will get a dragon army on our side during the Battle of Ala Mhigo since I don't see them as a race that would get involved in this war directly unless Midy decides to put in some of his followers to the Eorzean Alliance. At best the Eorzean Alliance may develop their own Airship Armada for the Battle of Ala Mhigo with a part of 3.X era showing the construction of the Eorzean Airship Armada.

This Airship Armada would then become a valuable asset to the War in 4.0 with the Eorzean Alliance finally having a Airship Armada of their own to counter the Garlean Airship Armada defending their Capital.

SE is also not bound to focus on 1 issue only as 2.X era story has shown with how its story was split between the Scions rise to power (which lead to the conspiracy) and the issues Ishgard was dealing with (which lead to Ishagrd's role in 3.0 and opening of Ishgard's gates). 3.X can cover the two issues of Eorzea finally becoming united while also covering the rising tension of War for Ala Mhigo for the other part of the story which could all accumilate into the Battle of Ala Mhigo at the end of 3.X.

[Shippuu]

people really need to stop to add tank that will bring nothing new to the game,

And people who think that Samurai can't offer new unique things to a tank role lack the imagination/creativity to realize they very much can.

As well as if Yoshi-P was the be all end all authority on what got added to the game then SAM would have never been considered for a tank role like it has been stated it was.

[mrmelgibson]

Well don't forget that we still have to deal with 3.X era Storyline which may focus on setting the stage for 4.0 just like 2.X era storyline. Leaving open 3.X for the covering of the story with the unification of the Alliance, Ul'dah's recovery, and more foreshadowing of the Garlean Empire's return which can have the event lead to the Battle of Ala Mhigo at the end of 3.X.

This would allow the Battle of Ala Mhigo to serve as the event that opens the gate into 4.0 area (Garlean Empire and Eastern Continent) for 3.X era ending just like how 2.X ending with Steps of Faith and the revealing of the conspiracy leads to the event of 3.0.

You make some very good points. Could end up like this. Guess time will tell.

[OMEGA_HACK]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...rview_summary/

I think that he feels that it fits DD and that some people would like it to be DD could be enough. I feel the armor will be fine being like dragoon (who has full metal AF, also seems fitting that a polearm user would share with Samurai someone who would have love for polearms :P). I suppose I don't share the opinion that jobs need to be distributed by culture but I respect your preference for it.

I would love to say that that was Yoshi's words on the matter of SAM being a DPS but that is not really the case, that reddit article is paraphrasing things, his actual words translated to more along the lines of:

"We considered using Samurai instead of Dark Knight, but thematically it didn't fit. Also, if it were a tank would it be more considered a Shogun? Samurai might be considered a DPS, blah blah blah please look forward to it."

It was more along the lines of conjecture than statement. I believe we can call it little more than a 'musing' of the idea whether or not SAM should be tank or DPS. Much like what we are doing now.

snip talking about the same role being used twice.

I'd love to ask you how you know how Dark Knight will play?

Now for a bit of schooling, as someone who is quite literally IRL trained to be able to train and use: Small sword, Rapier, Bastard Sword (Zweihander), and proficient in Aikido (a modern martial art technique derived from one of the historically older martial arts forms) I can tell you, while wield a Katana and a Zweihander you might have both your hands on the weapon, however...they are COMPLETELY different in functionality, In order to stop an attack with a bastard sword generally you would stop it head on perpendicular to cause the reverb to make your opponent lose their balance. With a Katana because of the creation of the blade you would allow your opponent to glide off your blade to deflect an attack which then would hopefully throw them off their balance. They function completely different, so please stop saying its the same thing as DRK, its not, nothing the same save for you hold it with two hands, in fact that is not entirely true because there are many times in Aikido training with a Katana that you hold with one hand and apply pressure to the butt of weapon or use your free hand to give the blade movements a more fluid animation for countering an attack.

As for Small sword and Rapier both weapons at a glance look exactly the same, most people won't even be able to tell the difference between the two unless you physically hold it. There is a big weight distribution difference which allows each weapon to do things better or worse than the other. I hate to call people out like this, but when you've poured hours upon hours to perfect a craft like I have its a bit insulting for someone to say "they are exactly the same" over and over. Again, I'm not trying to call anyone out, but before you claim its exactly the same go pick up those weapons in real life and tell me they are the same, the weight balance is different, the over all weight is different, the design of the weapon is different, which in turns FORCES the user to use it different; meaning it CANNOT play the same.

[silentwindfr]

And people who think that Samurai can't offer new unique things to a tank role lack the imagination/creativity to realize they very much can.

As well as if Yoshi-P was the be all end all authority on what got added to the game then SAM would have never been considered for a tank role like it has been stated it was.

it's more Samurai skill chain or capacity from the previous game will be more interesting added to a dps role than a tank role.... all the stuff a pure physical jobs can do the warrior can do it. because that the wholepoint... the only small different will be into the samurai be more technical when the warrior is more into brute strenght.... but that don't change the fact of what the class can or cannot do.

but let's do a bit of braimstorming, since you seems to think that creativity can create anything...
- Two hand katana. even if they go with two katana, more ronin, it will not change the type. slash type same as the warrior.
- no magical power involved, same as the warrior.
- only the parry and dodge as defense, same as the warrior.

that the basic point of the jobs... now we can use the focus and the technique... but wait it will not be different of the defiance of the warrior. since for get this sort of focus, you will use skill.
make it skill chain based? why give this to a tank when it's clearly something that can be more interesting as dps.

you are the one that refuse to admit that samurai will bring nothing news and fresh to the tank role. you can try to create anything, but it will fall into what the other three tank do... i will prefer see stuff like blue mage that will create some interesting synergy and possibility than another physical damage jobs... when we already have 2 like this as tank, one with 1 hand weapon + high resistance and the second one 2 hand weapon + high hp pool.

they have think at samurai as tank because it's the only other jobs that can really fit as 2 hand sword user. and that don't change that yoshi-p have said since then that the samurai for him will be more a dps if it's added.

[Intaki]

If anything is going to prevent SAM from being a tank it's the fact that it would be hugely redundant on a creative level. You would not only have two two-handed sword users in the game, but both of them would occupy the same role. That would look extremely lazy on the part of SE.

I would be much more interested in seeing SE try their hand at a mage tank, and leave SAM to dps where it belongs.

[OMEGA_HACK]

it's more Samurai skill chain or capacity from the previous game will be more interesting added to a dps role than a tank role.... all the stuff a pure physical jobs can do the warrior can do it. because that the wholepoint... the only small different will be into the samurai be more technical when the warrior is more into brute strenght.... but that don't change the fact of what the class can or cannot do.

but let's do a bit of braimstorming, since you seems to think that creativity can create anything...
- Two hand katana. even if they go with two katana, more ronin, it will not change the type. slash type same as the warrior.
- no magical power involved, same as the warrior.
- only the parry and dodge as defense, same as the warrior.

that the basic point of the jobs... now we can use the focus and the technique... but wait it will not be different of the defiance of the warrior. since for get this sort of focus, you will use skill.
make it skill chain based? why give this to a tank when it's clearly something that can be more interesting as dps.

you are the one that refuse to admit that samurai will bring nothing news and fresh to the tank role. you can try to create anything, but it will fall into what the other three tank do... i will prefer see stuff like blue mage that will create some interesting synergy and possibility than another physical damage jobs... when we already have 2 like this as tank, one with 1 hand weapon + high resistance and the second one 2 hand weapon + high hp pool.

they have think at samurai as tank because it's the only other jobs that can really fit as 2 hand sword user. and that don't change that yoshi-p have said since then that the samurai for him will be more a dps if it's added.

Actually Florence, the version of Samurai that I created in the original post DID do something that NO OTHER TANK COULD DO. And that is counter, at the moment, tanks can Block and/or parry. Not counter. Counter means they would offer a third and brand new way to reduce damage while at the same time dealing damage. I made sure that I kept the idea of Samurai being someone who can hold its own, and in my creation I would envision the SAM to have roughly the same MP value as WAR but much less HP than WAR, and a littler more HP (roughly 500 more) than PLD. In turn for not being the best in either of those fields it would be the best in Tank DPS. Now tell me that its like a tank we already have.

I should note I did not include DRK in this as we know NOTHING of its move-set, the only thing we know is that it will be an MP management tank, so my guess is like healer level MP, with around PLD HP values, and uses MP to reduce incoming damage. But again we don't really know, unless you know a secret that none of us know.

[silentwindfr]

*sighs* the main trouble is not about samurai vs dark knight, but samurai vs warrior.
i will go farer since some people like to avoid the main trouble.

for make a tank into a game viable and balanced you need to have con and pro.
for a two handed weapon tank, you loose the resistance of a shield, then you go either with magical buff or hp pool. strangely we already have the two... for the hp pool you do have the warrior... and the magical one it will be the dark knight (even without know the jobs, yoshi-p have already explain that the jobs will be based on the magic)

other point that seems to be avoid totally, parry don't nullify damage... when you parry you still take damage, make it more dodge based? we already had this talk with the ninja tank thread. if a jobs dodge all, it's overpowered, if it don't dodge enough, it will be underpowered.

samurai tank can't bring anything new to the tank role soo far. exept new mechanic for deal damage.... that are more interesting to develop for a damage dealer.

and i'm talking about the game, not the irl... weapon damage is what count, the animation are only for the eyes... what they do is the important. that why summoner can't really be a pet jobs like some ask, because it will not be different of the black mage... we are talking of game, not irl and that why soo far, samurai will be too similar of the warrior for be a decent choice.


counter can't be used as a particularity... because you can't counter magic in the game, you can't block, parry magic, you can only dodge it. other point, the paladin already use a country skill, even if it's under used it's already in it skill. a reactive tank is nice when you have a huge hp pool and have regen skill... or the jobs will be soo much unbalanced.
because if it's like what you offer, he will have not a lot of life, not a lot of damage reduction... for get.... a country strike that will only work on physical attack. even if you put all the mechanic on the parry.... parry can't reach 100% of chance, and even if it's 100%, parry damage nullification rarely pass the 24-25%.... why take the samurai? i means, the paladin already have a passive -20% damage that can be boosted by the block, parry...

that the whole point... the jobs will bring nothing new and will be a pain to balance even if you put it on parry mostly, even if it's a jobs based on dodge it will be worst...