[Suggestion] SAMURAI

[Shippuu]

it's more Samurai skill chain or capacity from the previous game will be more interesting added to a dps role than a tank role.... all the stuff a pure physical jobs can do the warrior can do it. because that the wholepoint... the only small different will be into the samurai be more technical when the warrior is more into brute strenght.... but that don't change the fact of what the class can or cannot do.

I'm going to humor your arguments because I'm bored, despite the fact that none of your arguments hold because all of them could be said about Dark Knight as it's role as a DPS and SE has shown they can turn it into a tank. All what a SAM can do a WAR can do as a tank? I can say the exact same thing for SAM dps. That it can't provide anything that a MNK or DRG can't. Get out of here with that senseless logic because with that idea there shouldn't be anything except 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 dps job.

but let's do a bit of braimstorming, since you seems to think that creativity can create anything...
- Two hand katana. even if they go with two katana, more ronin, it will not change the type. slash type same as the warrior.

There is nothing wrong with with all the tanks being slashing damage. If anything it helps synergize with Warrior's Storm's Path debuff. for a SAM/WAR tank combo for 8man content.

- no magical power involved, same as the warrior.

Some can argue Warrior's Wrath mechanic is a type of magic. Samurai can easily have magical or spiritual aspects added to them if SE wanted, imbuing their weapons with ancestral energy (Warrior's Inner beast is connected to the soulstone and their supposed ancestor's.)

- only the parry and dodge as defense, same as the warrior.

By this logic DRK shouldn't be added either since they have parry and dodging as well as defensive buffs just like Warrior has. (Vengeance, Inner beast, Foresight)

make it skill chain based? why give this to a tank when it's clearly something that can be more interesting as dps.

This isn't FFXI. Even if SAM gets added as DPS it won't have Skillchains. Stop trying to make it FFXI's SAM because it won't be.

you are the one that refuse to admit that samurai will bring nothing news and fresh to the tank role. you can try to create anything, but it will fall into what the other three tank do...

A new tank doesn't necessarily have to change the formula on what it means to be a tank. It can (and likely will) still be a heavy armored meat wall. Besides, there's numerous mechanics they can give the samurai tank, like the OP posted. Or a system that builds stacks every time the samurai parries an attack, these stacks can reduce the damage SAM takes passively, or can be spent for other moves similar to wrath stacks if they wanted. I can think a many, many, many more unique things SAM can offer as a tank.

they have think at samurai as tank because it's the only other jobs that can really fit as 2 hand sword user. and that don't change that yoshi-p have said since then that the samurai for him will be more a dps if it's added.

And you are clinging way too much on the vague comment Yoshi-P said about his thoughts on a DPS samurai. It was not a hard confirmation and was just an opinion that offers little weight in the end. Yoshi-P has said many things with more assurance then that comment that has turned out to be untrue (Like personal housing prices.)

[OMEGA_HACK]

*sighs* the main trouble is not about samurai vs dark knight, but samurai vs warrior.
i will go farer since some people like to avoid the main trouble.

for make a tank into a game viable and balanced you need to have con and pro.
for a two handed weapon tank, you loose the resistance of a shield, then you go either with magical buff or hp pool. strangely we already have the two... for the hp pool you do have the warrior... and the magical one it will be the dark knight (even without know the jobs, yoshi-p have already explain that the jobs will be based on the magic)

other point that seems to be avoid totally, parry don't nullify damage... when you parry you still take damage, make it more dodge based? we already had this talk with the ninja tank thread. if a jobs dodge all, it's overpowered, if it don't dodge enough, it will be underpowered.

samurai tank can't bring anything new to the tank role soo far. exept new mechanic for deal damage.... that are more interesting to develop for a damage dealer.

and i'm talking about the game, not the irl... weapon damage is what count, the animation are only for the eyes... what they do is the important. that why summoner can't really be a pet jobs like some ask, because it will not be different of the black mage... we are talking of game, not irl and that why soo far, samurai will be too similar of the warrior for be a decent choice.

Yes and if you finish reading my post the SAM I have created wont be a HP pool tank it would be a Counter tank. completely different, and completely new in FFXIV you CANNOT counter in XIV you can however parry but parry is not counter, parry doesn't not inflict damage on the enemy. Also Samurai would have an ability that lets them parry/counter MAGICAL attacks. No other tank would be able to do this. NONE.

To play a bit of devil's advocate here though and say okay you are right my SAM is too much like WAR, so lets use your idea of Skill chain DPS SAM (ala: FFXI SAM):

Don't you think you would be stepping on the toes of a bunch of people who play Dragoon? I mean DRG is basically XI's SAM minus Skill Chains, because let's face is Skill Chains were exclusive to XI and their concept was about TEAM PLAY not Samurai solo play, although players broke it later down the road. Also don't you think it would be lazy for SE to introduce two combo heavy twohanded DPS jobs?

parry damage nullification rarely pass the 24-25%

Um what, Keen Flurry alone let's you break that easily and to say it rarely passes 25% is absurd, I've noted it being closer to the 30% mark on average, and for SAM that I've created the counter rate would be around 40% countering. Counter would basically be a parry that deals damage back to the target. You say we need to think outside the box when I believe it is you who either A) has not read my Original Post or B) is not willing to allow your own mind to BE outside the box.

[Intaki]

In turn for not being the best in either of those fields it would be the best in Tank DPS.

If your design for a new tank is focused on how effective and fun it is to dps with is that not a sign to just make the class a fully fleshed out dps (rather than a watered down dps with better health and agro generation)?

[OMEGA_HACK]

If your design for a new tank is focused on how effective and fun it is to dps with is that not a sign to just make the class a fully fleshed out dps (rather than a watered down dps with better health and agro generation)?

No. Its more reason to make it a tank to push those people interested in DPS (which Samurai tank would appeal to) but let them queue as a tank doing tank stuff, while being DPS flashy.

[silentwindfr]

for the samurai dps i see a systeme based on the skill chain, for make simple the samurai will be able to do skill chain bonus strike alone.
i had already given some example long ago.
for example, you have 2 skill, one is a vertical slash, the other one is a horizontal slash, if you do the two in row, it will create another attack Cross slash. it's a basic example, but i guess you can see the point about it. instead to have skill already created, the player will need to "create the skill" you will say is not different of the mudra and i will say not really since mudra are done in a order (dealing no damage) and you use the combinaison create for launch a skill.

here the jobs will have no combo, the point is to give freedom to the player to create him own combo. the samurai is a technical jobs.... then make it more technical, recquiring more skill for be played correctly is the right choice. not every jobs must be easy to play and the dragoon is a jobs based on a loooong dps cycles. here, the samurai will have the freedom to adapt to the situation, using the skill that it fit to be the best.
for the skill used for create the skill effect, they can use the basic move of the kendo, that will make it more interesting.

they can even make some skill effect only happend when you are in the right stance, and make use allows to switch between stance (cf: http://www.freethought-forum.com/images/kendo/kamae.jpg ) instead to add more skill for create new skill effect, they can add a stances. even the fact to change of stance can be based on effect like asking to do a special combinaison for switch of stance. the possibility are limitless and it will be fresh as dps...

one more time, i recognize that not everybody will be able to love or even master this jobs... but the one that will succed will feel the accomplishement. and it will be more a samurai, since it will be like master the way of the sword.

Um what, Keen Flurry alone let's you break that easily and to say it rarely passes 25% is absurd, I've noted it being closer to the 30% mark on average, and for SAM that I've created the counter rate would be around 40% countering. Counter would basically be a parry that deals damage back to the target. You say we need to think outside the box when I believe it is you who either A) has not read my Original Post or B) is not willing to allow your own mind to BE outside the box.

i'm talking of the damage nullified, not the chance to parry, parry don't block the whole damage.

@shippuu:
i'm tired to talk with you, you simply refuse the reality. the dark knight even if he use a two hand weapon, will use more mp and magic, said countless time by the creator of the game.

and a point, defiance a magic? seriously? stop to make argument that you think are cool. you have more people wanting to have samurai as dps, than you can imagine. most of the people arguing into this thread show it.


and i will say this, create a jobs tank, that will be more a dps simply for please the dps player that want shorter wait time for dungeon is not a good idea. tanking is more complicate and recquire more than simply know your class and it cycle. if they don't have the will to be a tank, create jobs like this...will change nothing.

[Shougun]

I would love to say that that was Yoshi's words on the matter of SAM being a DPS but that is not really the case, that reddit article is paraphrasing things, his actual words translated to more along the lines of:

"We considered using Samurai instead of Dark Knight, but thematically it didn't fit. Also, if it were a tank would it be more considered a Shogun? Samurai might be considered a DPS, blah blah blah please look forward to it."

It was more along the lines of conjecture than statement. I believe we can call it little more than a 'musing' of the idea whether or not SAM should be tank or DPS. Much like what we are doing now.

I didnt mean to say "this is how it is, SE confirms DD" just "appears to be his feeling" (musing), he has shown to change due to players and probably other devs (and they were thinking about it once before). But, I used that mostly in response to Mr. who said he feels all indications lead towards Sam being tank, and I said how so (with honest interest), seems to me like there are more indications to Sam being DD (not that either side has confirmation, just a bunch of feelings :P).

A domanese looking armor is interesting but also confirms little, they may has well have developed the armor for another Job that resides in the area or even a traveling dorma blacksmith who designed it abroad for foreign use. Could use that argument for that sword as well which looks very eastern influenced. (Not that it can't mean anything else either).

To prevent repeating myself now, since how I feel is in like 4 different posts lol, I'd really like to see scabbards at least for the Katana - that whole draw and insert animation needs to be in the game xD.

Also, just figured a good way to make a gil sink - actually give Samurai gil toss and just ignore the cries for a couple weeks as people spend billions on trying to one shot a boss. Right before they release anything really worthwhile, replace it with another balanced useful ability lol. (Joking.. maybe.. :P)

[OMEGA_HACK]

for the samurai dps i see a systeme based on the skill chain, for make simple the samurai will be able to do skill chain bonus strike alone.
i had already given some example long ago.
for example, you have 2 skill, one is a vertical slash, the other one is a horizontal slash, if you do the two in row, it will create another attack Cross slash. it's a basic example, but i guess you can see the point about it. instead to have skill already created, the player will need to "create the skill" you will say is not different of the mudra and i will say not really since mudra are done in a order (dealing no damage) and you use the combinaison create for launch a skill.

here the jobs will have no combo, the point is to give freedom to the player to create him own combo. the samurai is a technical jobs.... then make it more technical, recquiring more skill for be played correctly is the right choice. not every jobs must be easy to play and the dragoon is a jobs based on a loooong dps cycles. here, the samurai will have the freedom to adapt to the situation, using the skill that it fit to be the best.
for the skill used for create the skill effect, they can use the basic move of the kendo, that will make it more interesting.

they can even make some skill effect only happend when you are in the right stance, and make use allows to switch between stance (cf: http://www.freethought-forum.com/images/kendo/kamae.jpg ) instead to add more skill for create new skill effect, they can add a stances. even the fact to change of stance can be based on effect like asking to do a special combinaison for switch of stance. the possibility are limitless and it will be fresh as dps...

one more time, i recognize that not everybody will be able to love or even master this jobs... but the one that will succed will feel the accomplishement. and it will be more a samurai, since it will be like master the way of the sword.



i'm talking of the damage nullified, not the chance to parry, parry don't block the whole damage.

So basically MNK? Just change the name of the reason to be able to use a skill from "Martial Arts Stances" to "Skill Chain Combos"? So now we have a job that is not only stepping on DRGs and BRDs toes (both being DPS two handers) you want to step on the toes of MNKs stance-like combo system with branching choices depending on which stance you are in? Or are you more or less wanting to steal from Ninja's Ninjitsu with "based on the order of your abilities used depends on what you can do"?

If you want something technical then making them a Tank gives them things to manage, making its a technical job, and requiring more skill to play the job.

Also you are kidding yourself that people will not min-max a "free flow" combo design like you mention, utterly kidding yourself.

[Intaki]

No. Its more reason to make it a tank to push those people interested in DPS (which Samurai tank would appeal to) but let them queue as a tank doing tank stuff, while being DPS flashy.

See, you think that. But here's how it will actually work out: few of the DPS players will be drawn permanently to the role of tank. SAM will just be a watered down dps class with all the pressures and responsibility, as well as the significant shift in mechanical approach to combat, that comes with the tanking territory.

Meanwhile, tank players won't enjoy the class because in trying to cater to DPS players it will necessarily be watered down and consolidated in its tanking capabilities.

That's not even considering the balance issues inherent in a tank/DPS hybrid: if it's too tanky and does too much damage, it will be overpowered. If it's not tanky enough and doesn't do enough damage, it will be underpowered. If it does lots of damage but isn't tanky enough, no tanks will play it and everyone will wonder why it wasn't just made a dps. If it's tanky enough but doesn't do that much damage, your entire concept kind of goes out the window.

[Shippuu]

for example, you have 2 skill, one is a vertical slash, the other one is a horizontal slash, if you do the two in row, it will create another attack Cross slash. it's a basic example, but i guess you can see the point about it. instead to have skill already created, the player will need to "create the skill" you will say is not different of the mudra and i will say not really since mudra are done in a order (dealing no damage) and you use the combinaison create for launch a skill.

There's zero reason this kind of system can't be implemented and used for a tank samurai though. Doing skill combos that result in giving them defensive buffs instead of simply pressing a buff cooldown. There you go, you just created a unique tank that isn't like the existing tanks.

one more time, i recognize that not everybody will be able to love or even master this jobs... but the one that will succed will feel the accomplishement. and it will be more a samurai, since it will be like master the way of the sword.

And combining this system with a tank role combines technique with the romanticized way of the Samurai, to protect, serve, and if need be give up their life for those they are sworn to protect. Such self-sacrifice is a straight up tank kind of thing.

i'm talking of the damage nullified, not the chance to parry, parry don't block the whole damage.

Blocking doesn't stop all damage either yet PLD still has it as a form of mitigation. Also, nothing stopping SE from giving SAM tank a boost to their parry effectiveness. i.e. Samurai parry a higher percent of damage compared to PLD/WAR/DRK.

[silentwindfr]

So basically MNK?

simply no! seriously! monk is blocked into a cycle of skill combo... it's not freedom at all... here we are talking of jobs, that will have 0 combo. the fact to create a skill by using a few skill. is totally different... and the stance of the monk have no real impact on the skill... it's only for force the player to follow the right order for the skill. it's like choose skill for 1, then choose skill for 2, choose the skill for 3 > restart that the monk combo system.
here i'm talking about a stance system where each stance will have it pro and con. like one that will allows faster attack, other one that will allows AoE effect on the skill, another one that will be used for put debuff/stun/snare... indeed people will try to make min-max, but if it's used well depending of the fight one stance can be more insteresting, sincet he skill will have what it's needed. and even if people find a perfect cycle!!!

it will be deeper than a jobs that simply counter.

There's zero reason this kind of system can't be implemented and used for a tank samurai though. Doing skill combos that result in giving them defensive buffs instead of simply pressing a buff cooldown. There you go, you just created a unique tank that isn't like the existing tanks.

make this sort of combat system for a tank that must pay attention to him position, what do the monster, what happend to the other person? seriously? you never did play tank?

And combining this system with a tank role combines technique with the romanticized way of the Samurai, to protect, serve, and if need be give up their life for those they are sworn to protect. Such self-sacrifice is a straight up tank kind of thing.

no a tank that die is a bad tank... the main role of a tank are keep the hate and SURVIVE !!!!! a tank dead = a group dead!

Blocking doesn't stop all damage either yet PLD still has it as a form of mitigation. Also, nothing stopping SE from giving SAM tank a boost to their parry effectiveness. i.e. Samurai parry a higher percent of damage compared to PLD/WAR/DRK.

one more time parry can't block magic, explain me how you parry a fireball? or a wind gust? or a light based magic? or a darkness magic? exept if you imbued magic into your blade (and the samurai is not a mage) is not possible. and even if you increase the damage absorbed and how many time it absorbe... if you don't parry 2-3 time in row it can put you into a really tight situation as tank. it's the same trouble than dogde tank.