[Suggestion] SAMURAI

[silentwindfr]

for the samurai dps i see a systeme based on the skill chain, for make simple the samurai will be able to do skill chain bonus strike alone.
i had already given some example long ago.
for example, you have 2 skill, one is a vertical slash, the other one is a horizontal slash, if you do the two in row, it will create another attack Cross slash. it's a basic example, but i guess you can see the point about it. instead to have skill already created, the player will need to "create the skill" you will say is not different of the mudra and i will say not really since mudra are done in a order (dealing no damage) and you use the combinaison create for launch a skill.

here the jobs will have no combo, the point is to give freedom to the player to create him own combo. the samurai is a technical jobs.... then make it more technical, recquiring more skill for be played correctly is the right choice. not every jobs must be easy to play and the dragoon is a jobs based on a loooong dps cycles. here, the samurai will have the freedom to adapt to the situation, using the skill that it fit to be the best.
for the skill used for create the skill effect, they can use the basic move of the kendo, that will make it more interesting.

they can even make some skill effect only happend when you are in the right stance, and make use allows to switch between stance (cf: http://www.freethought-forum.com/images/kendo/kamae.jpg ) instead to add more skill for create new skill effect, they can add a stances. even the fact to change of stance can be based on effect like asking to do a special combinaison for switch of stance. the possibility are limitless and it will be fresh as dps...

one more time, i recognize that not everybody will be able to love or even master this jobs... but the one that will succed will feel the accomplishement. and it will be more a samurai, since it will be like master the way of the sword.

Um what, Keen Flurry alone let's you break that easily and to say it rarely passes 25% is absurd, I've noted it being closer to the 30% mark on average, and for SAM that I've created the counter rate would be around 40% countering. Counter would basically be a parry that deals damage back to the target. You say we need to think outside the box when I believe it is you who either A) has not read my Original Post or B) is not willing to allow your own mind to BE outside the box.

i'm talking of the damage nullified, not the chance to parry, parry don't block the whole damage.

@shippuu:
i'm tired to talk with you, you simply refuse the reality. the dark knight even if he use a two hand weapon, will use more mp and magic, said countless time by the creator of the game.

and a point, defiance a magic? seriously? stop to make argument that you think are cool. you have more people wanting to have samurai as dps, than you can imagine. most of the people arguing into this thread show it.


and i will say this, create a jobs tank, that will be more a dps simply for please the dps player that want shorter wait time for dungeon is not a good idea. tanking is more complicate and recquire more than simply know your class and it cycle. if they don't have the will to be a tank, create jobs like this...will change nothing.

[Shippuu]

for example, you have 2 skill, one is a vertical slash, the other one is a horizontal slash, if you do the two in row, it will create another attack Cross slash. it's a basic example, but i guess you can see the point about it. instead to have skill already created, the player will need to "create the skill" you will say is not different of the mudra and i will say not really since mudra are done in a order (dealing no damage) and you use the combinaison create for launch a skill.

There's zero reason this kind of system can't be implemented and used for a tank samurai though. Doing skill combos that result in giving them defensive buffs instead of simply pressing a buff cooldown. There you go, you just created a unique tank that isn't like the existing tanks.

one more time, i recognize that not everybody will be able to love or even master this jobs... but the one that will succed will feel the accomplishement. and it will be more a samurai, since it will be like master the way of the sword.

And combining this system with a tank role combines technique with the romanticized way of the Samurai, to protect, serve, and if need be give up their life for those they are sworn to protect. Such self-sacrifice is a straight up tank kind of thing.

i'm talking of the damage nullified, not the chance to parry, parry don't block the whole damage.

Blocking doesn't stop all damage either yet PLD still has it as a form of mitigation. Also, nothing stopping SE from giving SAM tank a boost to their parry effectiveness. i.e. Samurai parry a higher percent of damage compared to PLD/WAR/DRK.

[OMEGA_HACK]

for the samurai dps i see a systeme based on the skill chain, for make simple the samurai will be able to do skill chain bonus strike alone.
i had already given some example long ago.
for example, you have 2 skill, one is a vertical slash, the other one is a horizontal slash, if you do the two in row, it will create another attack Cross slash. it's a basic example, but i guess you can see the point about it. instead to have skill already created, the player will need to "create the skill" you will say is not different of the mudra and i will say not really since mudra are done in a order (dealing no damage) and you use the combinaison create for launch a skill.

here the jobs will have no combo, the point is to give freedom to the player to create him own combo. the samurai is a technical jobs.... then make it more technical, recquiring more skill for be played correctly is the right choice. not every jobs must be easy to play and the dragoon is a jobs based on a loooong dps cycles. here, the samurai will have the freedom to adapt to the situation, using the skill that it fit to be the best.
for the skill used for create the skill effect, they can use the basic move of the kendo, that will make it more interesting.

they can even make some skill effect only happend when you are in the right stance, and make use allows to switch between stance (cf: http://www.freethought-forum.com/images/kendo/kamae.jpg ) instead to add more skill for create new skill effect, they can add a stances. even the fact to change of stance can be based on effect like asking to do a special combinaison for switch of stance. the possibility are limitless and it will be fresh as dps...

one more time, i recognize that not everybody will be able to love or even master this jobs... but the one that will succed will feel the accomplishement. and it will be more a samurai, since it will be like master the way of the sword.



i'm talking of the damage nullified, not the chance to parry, parry don't block the whole damage.

So basically MNK? Just change the name of the reason to be able to use a skill from "Martial Arts Stances" to "Skill Chain Combos"? So now we have a job that is not only stepping on DRGs and BRDs toes (both being DPS two handers) you want to step on the toes of MNKs stance-like combo system with branching choices depending on which stance you are in? Or are you more or less wanting to steal from Ninja's Ninjitsu with "based on the order of your abilities used depends on what you can do"?

If you want something technical then making them a Tank gives them things to manage, making its a technical job, and requiring more skill to play the job.

Also you are kidding yourself that people will not min-max a "free flow" combo design like you mention, utterly kidding yourself.

[silentwindfr]

So basically MNK?

simply no! seriously! monk is blocked into a cycle of skill combo... it's not freedom at all... here we are talking of jobs, that will have 0 combo. the fact to create a skill by using a few skill. is totally different... and the stance of the monk have no real impact on the skill... it's only for force the player to follow the right order for the skill. it's like choose skill for 1, then choose skill for 2, choose the skill for 3 > restart that the monk combo system.
here i'm talking about a stance system where each stance will have it pro and con. like one that will allows faster attack, other one that will allows AoE effect on the skill, another one that will be used for put debuff/stun/snare... indeed people will try to make min-max, but if it's used well depending of the fight one stance can be more insteresting, sincet he skill will have what it's needed. and even if people find a perfect cycle!!!

it will be deeper than a jobs that simply counter.

There's zero reason this kind of system can't be implemented and used for a tank samurai though. Doing skill combos that result in giving them defensive buffs instead of simply pressing a buff cooldown. There you go, you just created a unique tank that isn't like the existing tanks.

make this sort of combat system for a tank that must pay attention to him position, what do the monster, what happend to the other person? seriously? you never did play tank?

And combining this system with a tank role combines technique with the romanticized way of the Samurai, to protect, serve, and if need be give up their life for those they are sworn to protect. Such self-sacrifice is a straight up tank kind of thing.

no a tank that die is a bad tank... the main role of a tank are keep the hate and SURVIVE !!!!! a tank dead = a group dead!

Blocking doesn't stop all damage either yet PLD still has it as a form of mitigation. Also, nothing stopping SE from giving SAM tank a boost to their parry effectiveness. i.e. Samurai parry a higher percent of damage compared to PLD/WAR/DRK.

one more time parry can't block magic, explain me how you parry a fireball? or a wind gust? or a light based magic? or a darkness magic? exept if you imbued magic into your blade (and the samurai is not a mage) is not possible. and even if you increase the damage absorbed and how many time it absorbe... if you don't parry 2-3 time in row it can put you into a really tight situation as tank. it's the same trouble than dogde tank.

[Shippuu]

make this sort of combat system for a tank that must pay attention to him position, what do the monster, what happend to the other person? seriously? you never did play tank?

I trust the average tank to be able to use this system better than your average DPS to be honest. Obvious if it's a tank there would be no positionals, but that's thematically fine because the romanticized Samurai would only be fighting his opponent from the front anyways as it's the honorable thing to do.

I am a career tank. I very much know how to play a tank. But someone who's clearly a dps'er is apparently telling me what a tank's role should be lol.

no a tank that die is a bad tank... the main role of a tank are keep the hate and SURVIVE !!!!! a tank dead = a group dead!

A tank's job is definitely to hold enmity and try to survive, ultimately he is there to take hits and die for his allies. It's up to the healer to make sure he doesn't die more than anything.

one more time parry can't block magic, explain me how you parry a fireball? or a wind gust? or a light based magic? or a darkness magic? exept if you imbued magic into your blade (and the samurai is not a mage) is not possible. and even if you increase the damage absorbed and how many time it absorbe... if you don't parry 2-3 time in row it can put you into a really tight situation as tank. it's the same trouble than dogde tank.

Parry can't block magic YET. There's nothing to say SE can't change that rule for SAM. Give them again a passive ability that let's them parry magic. It's well within the fantasy approach of Samurais. FF Tactic's samurais had spirit swords with all kinds of magical properties. It most definitely is very, very possible. You just keep showing your own narrow-mindedness when it comes to this. From a game design point it's possible, from a fantasy/lore design point it's possible. Please stop sticking your head in the sand.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Eh I doubt that, as I said already with the DRK, I know a handful of players who were I admit a bit bummed by the fact DRK was going to be a tank, however in the long haul they are still going to play it no matter what because THAT is their job. The reason why they love FF. Same for SAM, those die hard players will play the job regardless, I don't care how much they say they won't (trends on these forums on different topics alone can prove that its just nonsense QQing and in the end people will still play/do what they said they didn't like.

Now that is where its up to SE to say "Okay we really have to make this capture those that might not want to play it in this particular role, and whats our best way of doing that." The argument about not being tanky enough is silly, this game is too balanced to even offer up those ideas. Basically my idea on a scale of 1-100 (100 being best at the category)

Job HP MP DMG Reduction Parry DPS
WAR 100 50 75 60 70
PLD 75 75 100 70 50
DRK 75 100 60 60 75
SAM 70 50 60 80 100

I feel that is pretty balanced and offers uniqueness to all the tanks.

simply no! seriously! monk is blocked into a cycle of skill combo... it's not freedom at all... here we are talking of jobs, that will have 0 combo. the fact to create a skill by using a few skill. is totally different... and the stance of the monk have no real impact on the skill... it's only for force the player to follow the right order for the skill. it's like choose skill for 1, then choose skill for 2, choose the skill for 3 > restart that the monk combo system.
here i'm talking about a stance system where each stance will have it pro and con. like one that will allows faster attack, other one that will allows AoE effect on the skill, another one that will be used for put debuff/stun/snare... indeed people will try to make min-max, but if it's used well depending of the fight one stance can be more insteresting, sincet he skill will have what it's needed. and even if people find a perfect cycle!!!

it will be deeper than a jobs that simply counter.

Yeah...I'm going to go out on a limb and say you didn't read past the first ability on original post, based on your comments. So for you lack of want, I will lack of respond, there is more than just countering that I gave my version of SAM tank it requires a lot of finesse in fact I'm honestly surprised that NO ONE has said it is too much finesse with TP management. And by that I don't mean "watch it deplete over the course of battle like all the other tanks" It requires much more than that. But you know, you actually have to read before I obligate myself to responding anymore.

one more time parry can't block magic, explain me how you parry a fireball? or a wind gust? or a light based magic? or a darkness magic? exept if you imbued magic into your blade (and the samurai is not a mage) is not possible. and even if you increase the damage absorbed and how many time it absorbe... if you don't parry 2-3 time in row it can put you into a really tight situation as tank. it's the same trouble than dogde tank.

Samurai in FF lore have been known to use magic on their blades to enhance them...hell even the precious Samurai in FFXI (Not the player but the only REAL NPC Samurai in the whole game) had a Katana that was infused with the power of Phoenix. A MAGICAL FIRE BIRD.

[silentwindfr]

yeah your last comment is simply bad in soo many way, for make simple... you throw away the fact that samurai is more a dps for.... make more player play tank role? do i am the only one that see a trouble here?

ohh i did forget, like said before the goal of a tank is to hold the aggro and SURVIVE! explain me how your parry tank will survive with not enough hp and a poor mitigation of damage? even if it's deal more damage than the other tank... why any decent raid leader will take it as tank, instead of the paladin, warrior? it will not be different that play at the russion roulette

OMEGA_HACK i will be blunt, you lack any comon sense about balance and game creation... *sighs* i want you to find me any raid leader that will want your samurai as a tank in him raid? because the main point is here.... the fact that player will find it interesting for play in group. not because player want to play it. but to be played into a group.

Yoshida in the past have said about creating new jobs, that it recquire a few thing.
First what it will bring of fresh to the game
second what it will bring to the group

because with past of FF it's easy to bring many many jobs... but if they are all similar it will be pointless.

[mrmelgibson]

snip

Thank you. I was literally about to post something similar. His argument as you put it can be used to support dps, heals or tanks. And to keep using the one arbitrary comment YP a while back (even though several people including yourself have debunked it) is quite amusing.


I also find it funny when someone tells you that a unique tank class is somehow uninspiring. Yet, it would some how be a lot more technical and stand out as dps lol.

Did you notice how he has yet to even give one example of a unique trait/ability or even play style as dps? You have given many off the top of your head for tank. All you have received as a rebuttal is "it will be too close to other tanks, because I said so". It\\\\'s very obvious he wants SAM as dps no matter what legitimate ideas or suggestions you volunteer. He\\\\'ll argue anything you present to further his agenda.

[silentwindfr]

i did spend more time in the tank role in my mmorpg career than you can imagine... but that not the point here... if it will be me, i don't care, i will take the time and master any system throw at me... but well if you bring this sort of system to average tank.... they will be unable to use it. and it will fail to bring more tank. most of them will feel frustration and simply go play them other jobs.

anyway, all i see it's you are two advocating to the tank sam, but if i was you, i will not hope to much about it.

to mrmelgibson:
what i point is the truth... you can say that i don't bring more, indeed you can create anything, but do it will feel fresh for the god sake that the whole point.
do it will bring something new to the game? do it will bring something new to the group? do it will be balanced? do it will be wanted by the community into a group?

because i still remember how the warrior was left out before the change, it was possible to be a warrior tank before but... people didn't want it, because it was more risky than have a paladin. that the whole point. do this sam tank will bring anything that a group will want, that other don't already do? make it unique in it gameplay is fine, but do it enough for make it wanted. even my sam dps is not good enough for be wanted without a looot of work on it.

[OMEGA_HACK]

I'm not advocating anything either way, I've personally stated earlier I would be fine with either one, however Silentwindfr, if someone posts on a thread that I spent time and care into creating for the public to see and then to have someone say without any solid ground "its not unique because I say so" you better be ready for the "advocacy" of me defending the IDEA of my creation.

As proof of this too, if you notice I have liked EVERY SINGLE POST in this thread even ones that you have posted, because honestly if it were to be a tank cool, if it were to be a dps cool, hell if they made it a healer it'd be cool. But don't $#!% on my idea because you say so and say something isn't unique when you didn't even fully comprehend the idea in the first place. Thanks.