The Monk Temple Reborn

[Truedragon]

Ive read those posts months ago dude. It just doesnt add up no matter what the spreadsheet and the numbers say.


Dont think you fully get what I am saying in my previous post either. The difference between i110 and i130 accessory is just 5 basic stat (str, dex, int etc). This is true for i70 to i90 for example. But also i130 to i150!!!

So with DET weighing 0.572, and if the piece gives you 11 DET, you are literally talking about the equivalent of 6.29 STR which is more than i150 will give you. It just isnt happening, dude. No matter what the spreadsheets say about DET. If you hang on to det being 0.572, then pretty much you are saying that the dreadywmr choker of slaying is literally closer to i150 than it is i130.

Its just a check. You can do this for every piece of gear. Ive done the calcs yesterday.

Dreadywmr choker: 33.91
Ironworks choker: 25.94
Difference: 7.97!!! almost 8 STR difference. Obviously flawed.

Dreadwyrm earring: 33.91
Ironworks: 25.94
Difference: 7.97 again!!

Bracelet: 29.29
Dreadwyrm: 27.31

Ironworks ring: 28.85
Dreadwyrm ring: 31.58
Difference: 2.73

You can tell something is not right from just looking at the numbers. The difference between ironworks choker and earring vs dreadwyrm choker and earring almost 16 str??? You kidding me?
Just fyi upgrading the chest piece from i110 to i130 only gives you 12 more str.

But lets assume for a moment that the weights are true. With that much difference in dps, why arent we seeing monks doing 800 dps without echo then? In fact, most monks would struggle to break ninja dps. Let alone over 800.

[Dervy]

I think you missed the part where I believe he's overestimated it. I think 0.57 is too high as well, but this is why no one should be using weights right now as they're all inaccurate. We've been using outdated and inaccurate formulas to measure up Determination. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done and the only weights that I can say are "accurate" so far, are for the Dragoon as I've spent quite a long time gathering data for it. Rest assured we'll get all of it sorted out before Heavensward.

Oh and my napkin math indicates that the monks DET weighting is around 0.47

[SunnyHirose]

Are you trying to tell me a piece with Accuracy and a Madison-tier DPS stat is supposed to be directly comparable to a piece with two Bahamut-tier DPS stats? Because they're not.

[Truedragon]

BiS gear has nothing to do where the gear comes from. Rowena or Final coil, they can all be compared to eachother. And generally, 1 gear is somewhat better than the other piece, but not 8 STR difference. Thats just omg overwhelmingly good since upgrading to i70-> i90 is 5 str, i90 ->i110 is 5 str, i110 -> i130 is 5 str. So when I then compare the 2 i130 gear using your weights, and see that the difference is so huge, I start to become skeptical.

You can also just check using i110 vs i130. Because if your weights are true, than i110 high allagan accessories with DET > i130 augmented ironwork without DET
While I have seen ppl use i110 untill they get their i130 gear, I have never seen someone using i110 non-crafted accesories outdamaging someone with i130 even if its just Rowena gear with Madison tier stats.

So the math is flawed.

[Dervy]

Uhh... Bahamut Tier, as in, Critical Hit and Determination, which are our two best sub-stats. Not Dreadwyrm gear. You're misunderstanding a lot of things here.

And no, Weights don't work like that. You can't say "well, the difference between i90 tier vs i130 gear is 15 Str cause i'm using weights at i130 baseline". Weights are all relative. If you're comparing entire ilvl sets, then the relative value of sub-stats increases each time we receive an ilvl jump. When we're i180, I guarantee you that the relative value of Determination against strength will be even more absurdly high and it'll keep getting higher.

[Truedragon]

If you want to fully compare:

Platinum scarf: 29.216 if you meld 18 acc on it, OR 31.58 with zero acc melds
Plat earring: same
Platinum bracelet: 28.64
Plat ring: 29.85

First thing to note is how even the platinum accessories have trouble matching up the dreadwyrm accessories using your stat weights even though the platinum gives you 4 stats as opposed to dreadwyrm having only 2 stats. Under the old stat weights the platinum earring is BiS and ring is almost BiS (minor difference). Using your stat weights, they dont even come close. Naturally I find this very hard to believe.

@dervy
Dreadwyrm is irrelevant in the sense that is not always BiS. As a mastercrafter I know all max melds and first thing I do, is compare max melds with all my other options which include Coil, Rowena, primal gear, and crystal tower gear. Only then can you find out which piece is BiS and which is not. Simply assuming Dreadwyrm as BiS gear is why monks struggly to keep up with Ninjas. The best ninjas use crafted gear.

It does work like that because you can simply compare each piece of gear as I have done with many jobs and between many level upgrades. And having 8 str difference or 10 str difference between chest and legs is not uncommon.

But for accessory, that is unheard of. Using old stat weights, its only a few points difference between Rowena poetics and dreadwyrm. I had no trouble believing this. But with new stat weights, simply put, Im not buying it. No other job has had this kind of accessory difference now and before. And neither did monk before.

[Dervy]

No one said anything about Dreadwyrm pieces being overall better than Rowena gear. You're taking it out of context.

And it doesn't work out like that. 2.0, DETs weighting was 0.3x. 2.2, Dets weighting was 0.35-0.38. It's now 0.45ish and that's using my up to date math. So if you do total ilvl set comparisons, you'll end up with erroneous numbers. Weights aren't 1:1 stat comparisons, nor are they 1:1 damage conversions. Everything is relative to everything else.

And if you're going to argue against DETs weighting being inflated to around 0.45, you should really catch up and read the posts between myself and Sunny in the Dragoon thread and/or read my blog because yes, Determination really is that good and that's why the Japanese usually just stack infinite DET on their gear and yolo.

The thing is, you're comparing old weights with new weights thinking "oh, it's because of the ilvl increase", when it's just completely different. It's "more accurate" mathematics vs old, bad, bogus maths & methodologies, so of course nothing will add up. All previous stat-weights and formulas are incorrect (except CRT)

[Truedragon]

No one said anything about Dreadwyrm pieces being overall better than Rowena gear. You're taking it out of context.

And it doesn't work out like that. 2.0, DETs weighting was 0.2x. 2.2, Dets weighting was 0.33. It's now 0.45ish and that's using my up to date math. So if you do total ilvl set comparisons, you'll end up with erroneous numbers. Weights aren't 1:1 stat comparisons, nor are they 1:1 damage conversions. Everything is relative to everything else.

And if you're going to argue against DETs weighting being inflated to around 0.45, you should really catch up and read the posts between myself and Sunny in the Dragoon thread and/or read my blog because yes, Determination really is that good and that's why the Japanese usually just stack infinite DET on their gear and yolo.

The thing is, you're comparing old weights with new weights thinking "oh, it's because of the ilvl increase", when it's just completely different. It's accurate mathematics vs old, bad, bogus maths & methodologies.

Thats very nice of them. Send me a reply when they break 800 dps without echo and before Heavensward...

Otherwise the argument is irrelevant. Noone argued against DET being good. It has always been good. But the argument is, it cant be that good, weighing at .572 which or 0.45 ish.
Saying 2 DET = 1 STR makes a lot of gear irrelevant dude. That is not the case. Especially when said dreadwyrm choker drops from something simple as T10. Get real.

[Dervy]

Again. You're using weights to compare DPS output when it doesn't work like that. You cannot convert weights into Damage. That's a very ignorant thing to believe.

Do you really want me to copy paste my entire blog to this thread so you can read it? You've not done your background reading as to WHY Determination is valued so much, so that's why it's so hard for you to believe it.

[Truedragon]

Again. You're using weights to compare DPS output when it doesn't work like that. You cannot convert weights into Damage. That's a very ignorant thing to believe.

Do you really want me to copy paste my entire blog to this thread so you can read it? Otherwise I'm going to stop replying to you, as you've not done your background reading as to WHY Determination is valued so much.

So basically you are saying the stat weights are there...but you cant use it to compare gear and you cant use it for dps output. Right...Then what good is stat weights!

basically you are saying, some japanese guys stack up only det. This confirms with your theories about det weight and thus det really is that good. BUT, if anyone asks, just say how det doesnt translate into dps and how you cant compare it in anyway to dps output.

Then what good is stacking up massive DET if you cant even see it in the dps output or compare it with other pieces of gear. Its completely useless then.