The Monk Temple Reborn

[Thrustie]

I did not say Dreadwyrm choker is not weighted higher. Even with old stat weights, the choker weighted highest. I am contesting it is weighted almost 8 STR higher because that would literally mean that the dreadwyrm choker is better than i150 choker with madison tier stats. Wake up.

If DET is really worth .572, than i110 high allagan choker or gloam choker (whichever one has DET) is stronger than i130 choker with madison tier stats. Get real.

Yeah in a situation where you can completely disregard the accuracy. Why is that so crazy? In any situation where you're swapping out an ironwork choker for a gloam choker, there's probably an alternative gear slot where you could drop acc for better returns. You acting like this is such an incredulous notion is baffling.

[Truedragon]

It is crazy because the math using DET 0.572 stat weight, shows 8 STR difference between augmented ironworks choker and dreadwyrm choker. We are talking about two i130 gear here, not i110 vs 130!

Even upgrading i110 to i130 only gave us 5 more STR. Thats why it sounds so crazy, dude. We arent talking about i110 vs i130. We are talking about two i130 gear having a gap thats bigger than 20ilevels. Does that sound logical to you.

Noone is contesting that dreadwyrm choker has the best secondary stats man. Even 10 year olds stack up on DET.

[Dervy]

I think you missed the part where I believe he's overestimated it. I think 0.57 is too high as well, but this is why no one should be using weights right now as they're all inaccurate. We've been using outdated and inaccurate formulas to measure up Determination. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done and the only weights that I can say are "accurate" so far, are for the Dragoon as I've spent quite a long time gathering data for it. Rest assured we'll get all of it sorted out before Heavensward.

Oh and my napkin math indicates that the monks DET weighting is around 0.47

[SunnyHirose]

Are you trying to tell me a piece with Accuracy and a Madison-tier DPS stat is supposed to be directly comparable to a piece with two Bahamut-tier DPS stats? Because they're not.

[Truedragon]

BiS gear has nothing to do where the gear comes from. Rowena or Final coil, they can all be compared to eachother. And generally, 1 gear is somewhat better than the other piece, but not 8 STR difference. Thats just omg overwhelmingly good since upgrading to i70-> i90 is 5 str, i90 ->i110 is 5 str, i110 -> i130 is 5 str. So when I then compare the 2 i130 gear using your weights, and see that the difference is so huge, I start to become skeptical.

You can also just check using i110 vs i130. Because if your weights are true, than i110 high allagan accessories with DET > i130 augmented ironwork without DET
While I have seen ppl use i110 untill they get their i130 gear, I have never seen someone using i110 non-crafted accesories outdamaging someone with i130 even if its just Rowena gear with Madison tier stats.

So the math is flawed.

[Dervy]

Uhh... Bahamut Tier, as in, Critical Hit and Determination, which are our two best sub-stats. Not Dreadwyrm gear. You're misunderstanding a lot of things here.

And no, Weights don't work like that. You can't say "well, the difference between i90 tier vs i130 gear is 15 Str cause i'm using weights at i130 baseline". Weights are all relative. If you're comparing entire ilvl sets, then the relative value of sub-stats increases each time we receive an ilvl jump. When we're i180, I guarantee you that the relative value of Determination against strength will be even more absurdly high and it'll keep getting higher.

[Truedragon]

If you want to fully compare:

Platinum scarf: 29.216 if you meld 18 acc on it, OR 31.58 with zero acc melds
Plat earring: same
Platinum bracelet: 28.64
Plat ring: 29.85

First thing to note is how even the platinum accessories have trouble matching up the dreadwyrm accessories using your stat weights even though the platinum gives you 4 stats as opposed to dreadwyrm having only 2 stats. Under the old stat weights the platinum earring is BiS and ring is almost BiS (minor difference). Using your stat weights, they dont even come close. Naturally I find this very hard to believe.

@dervy
Dreadwyrm is irrelevant in the sense that is not always BiS. As a mastercrafter I know all max melds and first thing I do, is compare max melds with all my other options which include Coil, Rowena, primal gear, and crystal tower gear. Only then can you find out which piece is BiS and which is not. Simply assuming Dreadwyrm as BiS gear is why monks struggly to keep up with Ninjas. The best ninjas use crafted gear.

It does work like that because you can simply compare each piece of gear as I have done with many jobs and between many level upgrades. And having 8 str difference or 10 str difference between chest and legs is not uncommon.

But for accessory, that is unheard of. Using old stat weights, its only a few points difference between Rowena poetics and dreadwyrm. I had no trouble believing this. But with new stat weights, simply put, Im not buying it. No other job has had this kind of accessory difference now and before. And neither did monk before.

[Dervy]

No one said anything about Dreadwyrm pieces being overall better than Rowena gear. You're taking it out of context.

And it doesn't work out like that. 2.0, DETs weighting was 0.3x. 2.2, Dets weighting was 0.35-0.38. It's now 0.45ish and that's using my up to date math. So if you do total ilvl set comparisons, you'll end up with erroneous numbers. Weights aren't 1:1 stat comparisons, nor are they 1:1 damage conversions. Everything is relative to everything else.

And if you're going to argue against DETs weighting being inflated to around 0.45, you should really catch up and read the posts between myself and Sunny in the Dragoon thread and/or read my blog because yes, Determination really is that good and that's why the Japanese usually just stack infinite DET on their gear and yolo.

The thing is, you're comparing old weights with new weights thinking "oh, it's because of the ilvl increase", when it's just completely different. It's "more accurate" mathematics vs old, bad, bogus maths & methodologies, so of course nothing will add up. All previous stat-weights and formulas are incorrect (except CRT)

[Truedragon]

No one said anything about Dreadwyrm pieces being overall better than Rowena gear. You're taking it out of context.

And it doesn't work out like that. 2.0, DETs weighting was 0.2x. 2.2, Dets weighting was 0.33. It's now 0.45ish and that's using my up to date math. So if you do total ilvl set comparisons, you'll end up with erroneous numbers. Weights aren't 1:1 stat comparisons, nor are they 1:1 damage conversions. Everything is relative to everything else.

And if you're going to argue against DETs weighting being inflated to around 0.45, you should really catch up and read the posts between myself and Sunny in the Dragoon thread and/or read my blog because yes, Determination really is that good and that's why the Japanese usually just stack infinite DET on their gear and yolo.

The thing is, you're comparing old weights with new weights thinking "oh, it's because of the ilvl increase", when it's just completely different. It's accurate mathematics vs old, bad, bogus maths & methodologies.

Thats very nice of them. Send me a reply when they break 800 dps without echo and before Heavensward...

Otherwise the argument is irrelevant. Noone argued against DET being good. It has always been good. But the argument is, it cant be that good, weighing at .572 which or 0.45 ish.
Saying 2 DET = 1 STR makes a lot of gear irrelevant dude. That is not the case. Especially when said dreadwyrm choker drops from something simple as T10. Get real.

[Dervy]

Again. You're using weights to compare DPS output when it doesn't work like that. You cannot convert weights into Damage. That's a very ignorant thing to believe.

Do you really want me to copy paste my entire blog to this thread so you can read it? You've not done your background reading as to WHY Determination is valued so much, so that's why it's so hard for you to believe it.