The Monk Temple Reborn

[Ricdeau]

Thats a complete dps lost and I would never do this in progression. This is what I have fracture cross classed for.

I think you're taking what some of us have said to the extreme. I'm not advocating using Chakra all the time to push timers, but pointing out that there are times when you can use it. Some of your posts are coming off a bit alarmist for something that we don't even have all the info on let alone play time for. I don't think any of us think that we're going to be using Forbidden Chakra with great frequency. We don't even know for a fact if there's a cooldown on it or not. However, if you are using Fracture every time you need to push a single GCD TP can easily and in some fights to now will be a problem. Also think about the damage loss your bard will incur if you are starving yourself if you are the only one that needs it. So if we are talking about progression then forcing a 20% damage loss on your bard outweighs the loss using an occasional Chakra.

We also don't know what the fights are even going to be like in the expansion so that's even more reason to hold off on calling something useless or near useless. Normally I agree with vast majority of what you post, but in this instance I think a step back until we can actually see it and experience it is needed before calling something a waste. A little optimism or skepticism is fine, but you keep trying to speak on fact when we don't have all the facts yet. In it's final form it may not even be a full GCD similarly to what they did with Mudras. Currently it looks to be a full GCD, and I do not believe a GCD as short as a Mudra would be fair, however, again we do not have the facts.

Presenting some numbers is one thing, but some of what you are saying is coming off just a bit aggressive.

[Jamein]

Chakra - Applies a stacking Chakra buff that can be consumed for either a powerful attack, or instant TP regain, once at 5 stacks. No Cost, but ability used on GCD. Stacks are infinite until used.

I missed the stream and caught this in the document posted on reddit, does this mean stacks have an infinite timer, or does it mean you can infinitely stack them to 99 or does it cap at 5? I assume it's the former as the latter would be obscenely overpowered.

Also, I guess if we apply the new skills to a fight like T9 (theoretically as we would be level synced if we tried it), things like double meteor streams, you could blow your GL3/chakra stacks on the high potency skills before the boss goes up, while the boss is out a few seconds, move forms ready for it to come down, build up some chakra, and be ready to go again.

The Chakra thing is only going to be worth while if fights have multiple brief intermissions where we switch between adds, or bosses not targetable (think single meteor streams kind of thing we can blow the chakraq attack, or get TP but we can still keep GL3 in this one so we're just abusing the chakra system for more TP or more damage) and in those times its fine to just build up some charka and save it until you are either TP starved and no invigorate or goad, so you blow the 200 TP to keep you going, or you're fine on TP so go for the big burst.

Or another example from t9, thermionic beam, boss dives on someone, we shoulder charge, attack, move out of iron chariot, as we are moving out we build up a chakra stack as we have nothing better to do, we move back in after iron for another hit before boss jumps back on to tank, we can probably build up another 2 stacks as we move back because shoulder charge on CD. That's 3 stacks of chakra right there during very minimal downtime, just two more for a 400 potency burst.

Guess what I am trying to consider is, how would this fit in to fights like that, and if you think about the times we have bits of downtime (earth shakers, or any point black AoE circle that we have to move out of boss melee range for a second or two etc) but not HUGE amounts, the chakra stacks can always be built in there and if people weave a stack or two in between those, it could work out very worth while.

Completely agree though that using chakra during actual boss uptime is going to just be an absolute DPS loss no matter what, so chakra building is for when you have any downtime no matter how small and that's it. It will make fights like T8 where bosses are just one big training dummy pretty weird as you'll be limited on charka usage, and ironically those are the fights you're gonna need TP in the most. The TP skill im not sure on still, but the extra burst in fights where we are able to generate stacks here and there is gonna be nice, but only if bosses have multiple instances where we have to stop punching. Guess we need to see how it goes.

[Ossom]

Infinite until use probably means that there is no time limit on them like Wrath Stacks have. Otherwise Chakra stacks would have gone from the most underwhelming things in my eyes to the most overpowered things, and would probably need to be nerfed.

[Jamein]

Infinite until use probably means that there is no time limit on them like Wrath Stacks have. Otherwise Chakra stacks would have gone from the most underwhelming things in my eyes to the most overpowered things, and would probably need to be nerfed.

Yeah that's what I assumed, I just wanted to double check with someone who may have watched the stream and saw if it caps at 5 or more, if you could go stack 99 of them before a fight it would just be ridiculous.

It honestly doesn't make sense for there to be a mechanic for monks where you must give up 5 GCDs (not 1 GCD, 5 GCDS) for 1/2 an Invigorate or a Strong, Burst Like attack.

Honestly, what really bothers me is it seems more of a mechanics for those who were complaining about monks viability in normal dungeons as thats about the only place right now you have ample time to fill up chakra as much as you want between pulls. However if boss fights in the expansion work more like T9, maybe we will see it put to some good use.

[Craiger]

Someone can correct me ifI'm wrong with this following calculation, but I think the Tornado Kick(consumes GL), is gonna be worth using even when you can hit the boss after using it... I know it sounds crazy to sacrifice your stacks, but after all, it's a 500 potency attack(!!)

You make sure ToD has at least like 15 seconds left, so you don't have to use that when you don't have GL3... Then you just use Tornado Kick right after your Twin/True attack(oGCD), which means you just have to use Snap/Demo to get your first GL stack.

From my calculations, you should get an increase of ~570 Potency, and only 1.2 seconds slower(between using Tornado Kick, and getting back GL3). That's totally worth it. Maybe I'm missing something important(don't usually calculate things like this lol), but I think you want to use this on some fights, even when the boss isn't jumping off.

It's ofc a much bigger DPS increase to use right before the boss jumps, but that downtime doesn't happen in all fights, and even if they do, you only have a 60 second CD on the ability, so you very likely have time to use it both during up-time, AND when it jumps.

Even if I'm wrong in those calculations, it's going to be an increase in DPS.

[Ossom]

Now I'm not going to assume Twin Snakes or Dragon Kick are factored in and just assume that they effect all attacks equally in this example.

You're in Couerl Form and you pop Tornado Kick with no buffs. (Rounded Nearest)

Doing this I realized one of my previous calcuations on demolish were completely incorrect. My apologies.

1. GL3 TK (500 X 1.27%) = 635 Potency. Compared to GL3 Snap Punch (180 * 1.27) 228 Potency. 407 Potency Gain.
2. Snap Punch 180 Potency. Compared to GL3 Bootshine (150*1.5*1.27) 289 Potency 109 Potency Lost.
3. GL1 Boosthine (150 * 1.5 * 1.09) = 246 Potency. Compared to GL3 Truestrike (190 * 1.27) 241 Potency. 5 Potency Gain
4. GL1 True Strike (190 * 1.09) = 207 Potency. Compared to GL3 Snap Punch (180 * 1.27) 229 Potency. 22 Potency Lost
5. GL1 Snap Punch (180 * 1.09) = 196 Potency. Compared to GL3 Dragon Kick (150 * 1.27) 191 Potency 5 Potency Gain
6. GL2 Dragon Kick (150 * 1.18) = 177 Potency. Compared to GL3 Twin Snakes (140 * 1.27) 178 Potency 1 Potency Lost
7. GL2 Twin Snakes (140 * 1.18) = 165 Potency. Compared to GL3 Demolish (310 * 1.27) 394 Potency 229 Potency Lost
8. GL2 Demolish (310 * 1.18) = 365 Potency. Compared to GL3 Bootshine (150*1.5*1.27) 289 Potency. 76 Potency Gain

This comes out to 135 Potency gain. Now were in the green. Unfortunately, we forgot to account for AAs (Which make up about 1/3rd of our dmg).
Say we do 7 Auto Attacks during this time, 1 after each attack starting at Tornado Kick and not counting after step 8.

7 * 127 = 889 From 7 attacks with GL3

100 + 109*3 + 118 *3 = 781 From 7 Attacks, 1 w/o GL, 3 w/ GL1, 3 w/ GL2

135+781-889 = 27 Potency Gain at the end of the entire rotation, this does not factor in attack speed buffs from GL, or any lose of Dragon Kick or Twin Snakes on either rotation or not including B4B or IR or XPot or Vulnerability Buff or Astro's Dmg Buff.

At the end of the day there probably is a way to make it work into an optimal rotation but in these circumstances I think its a DPS lost until I factor in B4B/IR dropping right after its use or something along the lines of that. Also, Im not sure how AAs work under GL, I only know they get 127% Dmg modifier, I don't know if they get the 115% Attack speed Modifier.

Thinking about it. I don't see popping an unbuffed Tornado Kick as a dps increase at anytime execpt when the boss is leaving us. Otherwise Monks rotation would be Get GL3 > Pop Tornado > Get GL3 > Pop Tornado.

[Craiger]

Now I'm not going to assume Twin Snakes or Dragon Kick are factored in and just assume that they effect all attacks equally in this example.

You're in Couerl Form and you pop Tornado Kick with no buffs. (Rounded Nearest)

Doing this I realized one of my previous calcuations on demolish were completely incorrect. My apologies.

1. GL3 TK (500 X 1.27%) = 635 Potency. Compared to GL3 Snap Punch (180 * 1.27) 228 Potency. 407 Potency Gain.
2. Snap Punch 180 Potency. Compared to GL3 Bootshine (150*1.5*1.27) 289 Potency 109 Potency Lost.
3. GL1 Boosthine (150 * 1.5 * 1.09) = 246 Potency. Compared to GL3 Truestrike (190 * 1.27) 241 Potency. 5 Potency Gain
4. GL1 True Strike (190 * 1.09) = 207 Potency. Compared to GL3 Snap Punch (180 * 1.27) 229 Potency. 22 Potency Lost
5. GL1 Snap Punch (180 * 1.09) = 196 Potency. Compared to GL3 Dragon Kick (150 * 1.27) 191 Potency 5 Potency Gain
6. GL2 Dragon Kick (150 * 1.18) = 177 Potency. Compared to GL3 Twin Snakes (140 * 1.27) 178 Potency 1 Potency Lost
7. GL2 Twin Snakes (140 * 1.18) = 165 Potency. Compared to GL3 Demolish (310 * 1.27) 394 Potency 229 Potency Lost
8. GL2 Demolish (310 * 1.18) = 365 Potency. Compared to GL3 Bootshine (150*1.5*1.27) 289 Potency. 76 Potency Gain

This comes out to 135 Potency gain. Now were in the green. Unfortunately, we forgot to account for AAs (Which make up about 1/3rd of our dmg).
Say we do 7 Auto Attacks during this time, 1 after each attack starting at Tornado Kick and not counting after step 8.

7 * 127 = 889 From 7 attacks with GL3

100 + 109*3 + 118 *3 = 781 From 7 Attacks, 1 w/o GL, 3 w/ GL1, 3 w/ GL2

135+781-889 = 27 Potency Gain at the end of the entire rotation, this does not factor in attack speed buffs from GL, or any lose of Dragon Kick or Twin Snakes on either rotation or not including B4B or IR or XPot or Vulnerability Buff or Astro's Dmg Buff.

At the end of the day there probably is a way to make it work into an optimal rotation but in these circumstances I think its a DPS lost until I factor in B4B/IR dropping right after its use or something along the lines of that. Also, Im not sure how AAs work under GL, I only know they get 127% Dmg modifier, I don't know if they get the 115% Attack speed Modifier.

Thinking about it. I don't see popping an unbuffed Tornado Kick as a dps increase at anytime execpt when the boss is leaving us. Otherwise Monks rotation would be Get GL3 > Pop Tornado > Get GL3 > Pop Tornado.

You've got it some wrong there I'm sorry.

Tornado Kick is oGCD, which completely changes that...

Tornado Kick (500 * 1.27) = 635. 635 Potency gained
1. Snap Punch(180). Compared to GL3 Snap Punch(180 * 1.27) = 228. 48 Potency lost
2. GL1 Bootshine(150 * 1.5 * 1.09) = 245. Compared to GL3 Bootshine(150 * 1.5 * 1.27) = 285. 40 Potency lost
3. GL1 True Strike(190 * 1.09) = 207 Potency. Compared to GL3 Truestrike (190 * 1.27) 241 Potency. 34 Potency lost
4. GL1 Snap Punch (180 * 1.09) = 196 Potency. Compared to GL3 Snap Punch (180 * 1.27) 229 Potency. 33 Potency lost
5. GL2 Dragon Kick (150 * 1.18) = 177 Potency. Compared to GL3 Dragon Kick (150 * 1.27) 191 Potency 14 Potency lost
6. GL2 Twin Snakes (140 * 1.18) = 165 Potency. Compared to GL3 Twin Snakes (140 * 1.27) 178 Potency 13 Potency lost
7 GL2 Demolish (310 * 1.18) = 365 Potency. Compared to GL3 Demolish (310 * 1.27) 394 Potency. 29 Potency lost

I did it differently when calculating it the first time, and I don't know how it could be such a big difference... but either way, that's a 424 potency increase in that scenario

Now, it's 1.2 seconds slower, and I didn't account for auto-attacks... Which according to you is a 108 potency lost. It still is a 316 potency increase.

Even if there is something we haven't accounted into the calculations, I doubt it's gonna come even remotely close to that 316 potency increase

[Jamein]

Snip

Not that I'm saying you're math is wrong here, I agree with it on principal, but something can't be right. With this we are essentially saying that with a 316 potency increase that we should be using Tornado kick whenever it comes off CD, which is every 60 seconds. So we're going to be blowing our GL3 stacks once a minute and rebuilding it every single time if those potencies are anything to go by and to me that just seems, off.

Like I said, not disagreeing with the math AT ALL, I just feel like somethings missing or maybe this is the way SE wanted to take the monk so the class was less about maintaining GL3 and more about building it up to blow it and burst.

I mean if you look at our burst capability right now if a boss is about to go invuln and we are going to lose GL3 and we have full chakra we can blow both attacks for a pretty heft number.
Torando kick = 500*1.27 = 635
Forbidden Chakra = 400*1.27 = 508

Thats 1143 Potency in one GCD as one is an oGCD, that's pretty impressive and is about the same potency as a double flare which amounts to 1216 I believe .
Had to re-work that out I'm not sure if my math is right on that one.
260 potency
30% from trait
80% from atsral fire 3
260*1.3*1.8 = 608

[Craiger]

Not that I'm saying you're math is wrong here, I agree with it on principal, but something can't be right. With this we are essentially saying that with a 316 potency increase that we should be using Tornado kick whenever it comes off CD, which is every 60 seconds. So we're going to be blowing our GL3 stacks once a minute and rebuilding it every single time if those potencies are anything to go by and to me that just seems, off.

Like I said, not disagreeing with the math AT ALL, I just feel like somethings missing or maybe this is the way SE wanted to take the monk so the class was less about maintaining GL3 and more about building it up to blow it and burst.

I mean if you look at our burst capability right now if a boss is about to go invuln and we are going to lose GL3 and we have full chakra we can blow both attacks for a pretty heft number.
Torando kick = 500*1.27 = 635
Forbidden Chakra = 400*1.27 = 508

Thats 1143 Potency in one GCD as one is an oGCD, that's pretty impressive and is about the same potency as a double flare which amounts to 1130 if I worked that out correctly (260 potency plus 30% for trait + 87.5% for Astral fire 3. = 565 for a flare)

Btw, I only used the "1.27" multiplier because it was easier comparing to the other guy, you have to include the bonus damage you get from DK, Twin snakes and Fist of Fire... which brings that potency up even higher.

As for there being something wrong... like I said, maybe I'm missing something, but I honestly can't come up with anything that would be better than using this when off CD.

Now, keep in mind that the increased potency of using Tornado Kick right before the boss jumps, is pretty much double the gain of using it in your normal rotation... So it might be better to hold on to it if you know the boss is gonna jump or something within a minute of the ability being off CD.

Yoshi-P specifically said that currently MNK is all about keeping the GL stacks, and that it would kinda change for 3.0... So wouldn't surprise me if this is the case.

As much as I hate losing GL, you are using a GL generating ability right after it, so it wouldn't be as annoying, and you would be able to get the DK debuff off much earlier than having to get through a whole combo like you do when you start from scratch without PB.

On the point of PB... I haven't even thought about how you could use that to get back the GL stacks even faster after using Tornado Kick. That could be an even bigger gain. There are times when you don't need PB anyways for transition... I'm not the best at this, so I'll leave that calculating to someone else.