Too little raid bosses

[The-Real-Link]

I personally, feel that trials (even if only EX) are challenging enough for a player group to be counted as a raid, and of course all the turns of all coils and the towers. For example in WoW's current raid (Blackrock Foundary), one could very well have cleared all the trash mobs in Flamebender's forge area, then turned left and gone directly to Kromog. No trash in the way at all - just a boss to a boss, so we can't discredit turns in coil that are bosses only, as was mentioned.

I'd probably prefer the 4-6 months timeframe, with smaller chunks of content rather than a huge raid and then nothing.

That's the unfortunate thing with WoW atm for me, is that I've finished Blackrock on Normal and nearly on Heroic. Our guild is nowhere large enough to even contemplate doing Mythic, and those hard lock you to the group ID you're with ala how coil used to be, which thus leaves me having to pug it. But now that the leveling from 90-100 is done, it's Blackrock or oh wait, that's it.

[Belhi]

The high level roulette has variety because its had 3 new dungeons added to it every patch.

I see what your saying. One issue its that this thread doesn't seemed to have settled on the definition of what constitutes 'raid' type content which is the OPs issue. Some posters don't even count the 24 man stuff.

As for what your saying, Im not sure if in the end it would pay off. Its worth pointing out that every patch has added at least one new Extreme trial except this last one.

Agree with OP.
For example in burning crusade WoW(2 year period) received 5 full scaled raids with about 10 bosses in each and 2 small scaled raids.
I also dont count towers as raids because If I compare SSC, The Eye, BT, MH, SWP it was endgame, much more harder endgame than towers here.
So only comparable are Coils. In 2 year period here in FFXIV there are 12 bosses vs 50 in wow.

The raids you listed there didn't add up to 50 bosses. You didn't mention Kara though which was still a raid so technically your right. However its worth pointing out that since then WoW has never pulled off the same quantity of raid content for its expacs and that's with a substantially bigger team. Whatever the situation was that allowed them to hit that amount of raid content has failed to repeat since then.

Also The Eye and MH had only 5 bosses each and SSC had only 6. SWP had 8 and BT had 9. You only hit the figure you gave if you add Kara which had 11 encounters, Gruul's lair with 2, Magtheradon with 1 and Zul'aman with 5.

[Kalandros]

Each Primal Extreme is raid content. Add 7 bosses right there. Plus 4 crystal tower bosses in 3 instances, 12 bosses. And 13 coils, 1 doesnt have a boss so 12 bosses. Add Ultima HM as well
32 Raid bosses in our "vanilla" duration. Plus a ton of trials that are equivalent of a hard mode dungeon and a ton of dungeons from lv 15 to 50.


WoW had less dungeons even though it had more Raid bosses.
But you know, take Molten Core for example. 4 Bosses were the same model - Lucifron, Gehennas, Shazzrah, Sulfuron Harbinger - with very minor differences in each fight (Mind Control, Reduced Healing, Magic things and Healing things) plus Majordomo also the same model, so 5 bosses have the same model with very easy mechanics. Then you got the other models that are mostly tank and spank fights, with adds.

Whats interesting there? Nothing. It was a painful grind through trash to get to boring bosses to eventually get to Ragnaros.

Blackwing Lair? A bit more interesting at the start with Razorgore and Vaelastrasz, but then it became tank and spank until Nefarian. Ugh Supression Room was a super boring thing to go through and there was too much trash.

ETc

I can go on.

FFXIV has more interesting content and raid-wise is a bit lacking but not that much behind WoW as some would believe.

Every outdoor S rank we have also has very little comparison in WoW - their outdoor raid bosses were rarer and since only the group who tagged got anything out of it, it was annoying to get anything from it.

[Arixtotle]

Except the game itself has classifications of what is a trial (the primals) and what is a raid (CT, coil). Your interpretation of what is a raid or not is pretty much moot if we're going by ingame terminology.

Except that you can't use in game terminology and then compare to another game with different terminology. You have to use the same definitions and terminology for all games you are comparing. What I posted was the accepted MMO terminology which can be used to classify all MMOs.

[LunnaRavenheart]

Also The Eye and MH had only 5 bosses each and SSC had only 6. SWP had 8 and BT had 9. You only hit the figure you gave if you add Kara which had 11 encounters, Gruul's lair with 2, Magtheradon with 1 and Zul'aman with 5.

But still more than 12, right?

[Kalandros]

Compare Vanilla with 2.0, don't add BC and stuff to it yet.

WoW had

Ragefire Chasm
Deadmines
Wailing Caverns
Shadowfang Keep
Blackfathom Deeps
The Stockades
Gnomeregan
Razorfen Kraul
Maraudon (1 Dungeon, all entrances connected, 3 'wings')
Scarlet Monastery (4 Wings)
Uldaman
Dire Maul (3 wings, 2 are connected)
Stratholme (2 wings)
Zul'Farrak
Blackrock Depths (best dungeon ever)
Temple of Atal'Hakkar
Scholomance
Lower Blackrock Spire
Upper Blackrock Spire
Zul'Gurub (10 bosses)
Onyxia (1 boss)
Molten Core (10 bosses)
Blackwing Lair (8 bosses)
Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj (6 bosses)
Temple of Ahn'Qiraj (9 bosses)
Naxxramas (15 bosses)

FFXIV has
Main Story:

Sastasha
Tam-Tara Deepcroft
Copperbell Mines
The Bowl of Embers
The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak
Haukke Manor
Brayflox's Longstop
The Navel
The Stone Vigil
The Howling Eye
Cape Westwind
Castrum Meridianum
The Praetorium
Thornmarch (Hard)
The Whorldeater (Hard)
The Striking Tree (Hard)
Snowcloak
The Akh Afah Amphitheatre (Hard)
The Keeper of the Lake
The Chrysalis
The Steps of Faith

Optional:
Halatali
The Sunken Temple of Qarn
Cutter's Cry
Dzemael Darkhold (I think its not part of main story though there are many quests for it, Grand Company and such, I could be wrong and forgetting a Main Story Quest for it)
The Aurum Vale
Wanderer's Palace
Amdapor Keep
Pharos Sirius
Copperbell Mines (Hard)
Haukke Manor (Hard)
The Lost City of Amdapor
Halatali (Hard)
Brayflox's Longstop (Hard)
Hullbreaker Isle
The Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard)
The Stone Vigil (Hard)
Sastasha (Hard)
The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Hard)
The Wanderer's Palace (Hard)
Amdapor Keep (Hard)
A Relic Reborn: the Chimera
A Relic Reborn: the Hydra
Battle on the Big Bridge
The Dragon's Neck
Urth's Fount
Battle in the Big Keep
The Bowl of Embers (Hard)
The Howling Eye (Hard)
The Navel (Hard)
The Minstrel's Ballad: Ultima's Bane
The Howling Eye (Extreme)
The Navel (Extreme)
The Bowl of Embers (Extreme)
Thornmarch (Extreme)
The Whorleater (Extreme)
The Striking Tree (Extreme)
Akh Afah Amphitheatre (Extreme)

Crystal Tower
- Labyrinth of the Ancients
- Syrcus Tower
- The World of Darkness
The Binding Coil of Bahamut
- Turns 1,2,4,5
The Second Coil of Bahamut
- Turns 6,7,8,9
- Savage Turns 6,7,8,9
The Final Coil of Bahamut
- Turns 10,11,12,13

I think people forget that once BWL was out, MC became just as easy as we now find first coil or certain extremes
Everything outgeared is always easy regardless of game

What I think Squenix did wrong was nerf content like T6-7-8 for no damn reason, not talking about echo either.

WoW had much less content. If you only count "raid bosses" then you're just stupid. Thats not what MMOs are all about. Raids are a TINY portion of the game and not the only end-game there is.

Also the Hard arent merely "oh lets just make them more hp with a mechanic extra" like Heroics are in WoW.
Compare Hard Mode dungeons to their normal version and, while its the same place, its not the same map, nor the same mobs or the same bosses. Its an entire different story and feel to the dungeons.

Primal Hard modes used to be very challenging to many people before everyone got decked out in i100+ gear. Hell we used to sell Titan HM because people couldn't clear it.
Extremes are even better fights, instead of merely changing the fight a bit it becomes an entire other thing you have to relearn.
Savage are the peak of difficulty, pretty sure they're harder than anything WoW has thrown in so far.

[LunnaRavenheart]

...snip...

If we go deeper in comparison, dungeons in FFXIV are just run from A to B in 15-20mins. While in wow there was multilayered like BRD, Sunken temple with 4 floors, Mara which have predungeon larger than any dungeons here etc.

Also middle tier content like zul aman, zul gurub, kahrazan which is completly missing here in FFXIV because there is only easy faceroll content like towers which require 0 attention and endgame coil. So we exactly have zero middle tier content.

Anyway Coils feel more like Gruul, Magtheridon, Onyxia .. = 1-2 packs of trash .. and arena bossfight. Wow had full scaled maps. Which is also completly missing here.

[Kalandros]

Please, do show me those 15-20 minute runs with ANY of the appropriate level gear for the dungeon. Likewise those lv60 dungeons in vanilla could be cleared super fast AND solo'd when you had gear. Those low level dungeons all soloable in a few minutes or very fast with a good group of the equivalent level. Also Maraudon was 1 dungeon. Everything connected.

You'll find it takes over 20 minutes easily if you do ffxiv dungeons without overgearing

But yea vanilla had stupid long dungeons because they had so much trash.

I dont think its fun to need to kill so much trash.
FFXIV has it balanced out in dungeons.

[LunnaRavenheart]

Please, do show me those 15-20 minute runs with ANY of the appropriate level gear for the dungeon. Likewise those lv60 dungeons in vanilla could be cleared super fast AND solo'd when you had gear. Those low level dungeons all soloable in a few minutes or very fast with a good group of the equivalent level. Also Maraudon was 1 dungeon. Everything connected.

You'll find it takes over 20 minutes easily if you do ffxiv dungeons without overgearing

But yea vanilla had stupid long dungeons because they had so much trash.

I dont think its fun to need to kill so much trash.
FFXIV has it balanced out in dungeons.

You are wrong, FFXIV dont have balanced dungeons in any way ... and also there is a problem that dungeons are already outdated/outgeared when they came out.

[Kalandros]

You are wrong, FFXIV dont have balanced dungeons in any way ... and also there is a problem that dungeons are already outdated/outgeared when they came out.

They balance the amount of Trash there is. Its not full of it that it takes you an hour just because there's too much trash like in WoW.
Also in WoW people find ways to skip trash so those dungeons take even less time and are also go from point A to point B - have you seen any recent WoW dungeon?