Healers forever gimped

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Did you not notice how absolutely nobody in the thread till me showed where they got 212MP from? Even googling for it, everyone points back to a reddit post made 2 months after the game was running. And nothing in the game actually says how it's calculated. I don't know about you but I don't feel like running all over the place chasing FATE's to level sync to just to sit around and count the numbers yet again. At least with the training dummies I can walk away to reset.

You already figured it out yourself, which was written in your previous post :P
For references: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2655573

And no I'm not contradicting anything I said earlier about the MP recovery. Lots of people in the thread have level 50 characters and several keep answering the questions like everyone has to absolutely minmax everything or they are playing bad. That scares people away from the job, and hence why we get so many poor tanks and healers, because these people are only jumping in to get a faster queue and don't care about playing well.

Where in the game does it say 212MP/tick, seems like this number comes entirely from Reddit. It says Potency 80, which you get at level 48, before that it's 60 at level 38. The amount recovered when you are in combat and when you are not in combat will be completely different, since MP and HP regenerate at different speeds when you're in and out of combat.

Meanwhile in the same post:

WHM: Level 50, normal ilevel 120/130 gear
Total MP: 4353, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 87 (87/4353 = 0.0199), out of combat 261 (0.0599)
MP recovered once Shroud of Saints begins:
144,231,318,530,617,829,916,1128,1215,1427,1514,1726
87+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212, That is a total of 1582, of which only 5 ticks are 212. Let's drop that first tick to compare with the next set. So 1495.

WHM: Level 50, no gear except ilevel 100 blue weapon
Total MP: 3752, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 75 (75/3752 = 0.0199), out of combat, 225 (0.0599)
122+197+409+484+696+771+983+1058+1270+1345+1557
75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212=1435, again of which only 5 ticks are 212.

So how is this any different from what I posted last time? It ISN'T. 15 seconds recovers 10% of your MP normally, and with Shroud it you end up with 38%(1435/3752) without gear, and 34%(1495/4353) with gear.

And again in the same post:

again of which only 5 ticks are 212.

note: 212 mp recovered every 3 seconds is only 10% if one's mp pool is 2120, which is impossible to have at level 50.

Which also contradicts:

The difference between WHM and SCH in this scenario is that Aetherflow is only affected by the maximum MP, while energy drain is more like Shroud of Saint's ticks and recovers the same amount of MP regardless of gear. 3 seconds = 1 tick.

And this:

Did you not notice how absolutely nobody in the thread till me showed where they got 212MP from? Even googling for it, everyone points back to a reddit post made 2 months after the game was running. And nothing in the game actually says how it's calculated.

While you also said:

SCH:47 (MP:3113) geared, Aetherflow off, in combat. Has same 2% MP regeneration rate as WHM

This would imply you acknowledge the fact that the natural 2% mp recovery is always there. In a previous contradiction you also mentioned there was a 212 tick here and there. You actually proved it yourself by re-inventing the wheel.

Last one for now:

15 seconds recovers 10% of your MP normally, and with Shroud it you end up with 38%(1435/3752) without gear, and 34%(1495/4353) with gear.

And in the very same post (AGAIN):

The difference between WHM and SCH in this scenario is that Aetherflow is only affected by the maximum MP, while energy drain is more like Shroud of Saint's ticks and recovers the same amount of MP regardless of gear. 3 seconds = 1 tick.

[Cynfael]

Lots of people in the thread have level 50 characters and several keep answering the questions like everyone has to absolutely minmax everything or they are playing bad. That scares people away from the job, and hence why we get so many poor tanks and healers, because these people are only jumping in to get a faster queue and don't care about playing well.

Discussing game mechanics in-depth on a role-dedicated sub-forum scares people away from playing a Job....what?

Players who would be scared away by such discussion A) probably aren't following these threads (if reading this forum at all) and B) probably shouldn't be playing the Job if they are so intimidated by the prospect of actually doing it well.

You certainly don't need to know all of the X and Y %/min values, and a lot of theorycrafting math breaks down to some extent in actual gameplay, but applying a little math helps people know if a statement is at least in the ballpark as far as correctness and relevance go.

[Ghishlain]

I'm pretty sure they use a bell curve and decide that 80% of players must be able to clear the duty within the allotted time with the minimum ilevel. Everyone else should be able to clear the content by exceeding the minimum ilevel.

When I talk about balance, I mean class/job balance between similar roles.

Take this thread for example. One of the arguments about SCH superiority is how SCH has better MP regeneration than WHM. I personally agree with this assessment and your math, though flawed to a degree, does lend weight to that.

Is the divide so broken that people should be screaming nerfs or buffs? No, I don't think so. But it is something S-E should consider with the fact the level increase is coming and a new healer is being introduced into the fray. There will be the eventuality that one of the healer jobs will be considered "third tier" and S-E will need all the information possible to help close that divide without breaking the game.

Likewise with the Ninja changes soon after Ninja was released. They indirectly decreased the potency of their most potent Ninjitsu and did a small TP cost increase to compensate. They based this on the fact that "everyone has put in great effort studying ninja and has come up with a rotation that is slightly more effective than what we had imagined allowing for a slightly higher percentage of DPS." Source: 2nd Question Answered in this Live Letter Digest.

Sarcasm aside, I don't jump into threads to derail them, rather people seem to keep quoting stuff out of nowhere and not sourcing where it is in the game, so when someone can't replicate the conditions, or the casual observation is not matching what people are just pulling out of nowhere, it's going to be contested. I'd have been content to have not even post a second time in this thread had someone actually gone "not quite 20%, here's me testing it..." rather than be insulted at every opportunity.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I believe you have the means to present perfectly logical and well respected opinions, you just need to get all your facts straight before you present them. If you present extremely misinformed opinion pieces, you will in turn get extremely poor responses. That's your flaw on these forums and something you should to correct if you wish to have your opinion more respected.

On the topic of "prove it to me", I'll just add that I did link Lyrica stating 212 mp/tick and that they even had a less detailed methodology posted a bit further down the page for a different level of Shroud (Source Here - It's the exact same way how you came up with your conclusion).

We can't possibly quote everything every time, or else we'd have ridiculously long walls of text in every single post. Players / Posters should have some initiative to find the sources themselves or prove it to themselves and if they cannot prove it, then disagree with their own facts presented in a logical way.

[Spoekes]

Sarcasm aside, I don't jump into threads to derail them, rather people seem to keep quoting stuff out of nowhere and not sourcing where it is in the game, so when someone can't replicate the conditions, or the casual observation is not matching what people are just pulling out of nowhere, it's going to be contested.

Between this lines you accuse us of pulling numbers out of nowhere without giving source for anything, and place your self in the role of the rightous contestant of our pulled facts.
That's quite ironic.

Discussing game mechanics in-depth on a role-dedicated sub-forum scares people away from playing a Job....what?

Players who would be scared away by such discussion A) probably aren't following these threads (if reading this forum at all) and B) probably shouldn't be playing the Job if they are so intimidated by the prospect of actually doing it well.

You certainly don't need to know all of the X and Y %/min values, and a lot of theorycrafting math breaks down to some extent in actual gameplay, but applying a little math helps people know if a statement is at least in the ballpark as far as correctness and relevance go.

There' much more theory crafting in DPS, and I have yet to see this driving people away from DPS to tanks and heals.

[Risvertasashi]

There' much more theory crafting in DPS, and I have yet to see this driving people away from DPS to tanks and heals.

TBH, it does drive me away from DPS. I'd still a play DPS if any of FFXIV's DPS were interesting (to me), but ever the pressure to minmax and get that extra 1%, or even 0.1%... is one of the things that pushes me away from it.

The nice thing about healing is that, while interesting to discuss in depth... at the end of the day (unlike DPS), HP/S is capped. If you can meet the minimum you win. Extra HP/S is overhealing and generally bad.

Unfortunately, however, you do still get people claiming THEIR CHOICE ONE TRUE SECONDARY STAT is the best and at times it is offputting. Or the whole sch vs whm thing. But at least there's enough discussion and differing opinion that the tanks and dps don't really care how you built, and raids still take 1 of each healer.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

You certainly don't need to know all of the X and Y %/min values, and a lot of theorycrafting math breaks down to some extent in actual gameplay, but applying a little math helps people know if a statement is at least in the ballpark as far as correctness and relevance go.

Rather than knowing the values (or not), Kisa's been providing false information. Take the potion reference for example:

There are also pots, remember those? Hi-Elixir has a 7-minute 30 second cooldown, and recovers a maximum of 460 points/20% of MP (and 24%/560 points of HP.) X-Ether is 460 points/20% of MP. Exactly the same 20%.

This isn't about nitpicking on numbers or knowing math. Kisa is presenting numbers that aren't close to what they actually are.

[Feylie]

The nice thing about healing is that, while interesting to discuss in depth... at the end of the day (unlike DPS), HP/S is capped. If you can meet the minimum you win. Extra HP/S is overhealing and generally bad.

The irony is that the best healers are the ones that DPS as much as possible while keeping everyone alive at the same time. It really just depends on the type of people you run with.

Healers have to min-max far more than any other class at the highest level of play.

[KisaiTenshi]

You already figured it out yourself, which was written in your previous post :P
For references: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2655573

Put "shroud of saints" into google. The first thread you get is
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-not-be-static
10-26-2013 05:52 PM Which refers to a Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXIVTC/com...oud_of_saints/ dated "1 year ago"
which in turn links to yet more reddit pages.

In fact the very first time "212MP" shows up on the forum is here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1425209
in a thread started on 10-12-2013 05:09 PM

Again, the game doesn't even say it recovers MP, perhaps that's why people keep asking. In fact, most of the information you see about Refresh is for FFXI. When you look for FFXIV refresh you get a lot of "how do I recover MP" questions on THIS forum.

So... let's just make a chart.


Missing data is just me getting sick of waiting for a FATE to pop.

[Ghishlain]

About to leave work, so I'll be quick:

Put "shroud of saints" into google. The first thread you get is
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-not-be-static
10-26-2013 05:52 PM Which refers to a Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXIVTC/com...oud_of_saints/ dated "1 year ago"
which in turn links to yet more reddit pages.

In fact the very first time "212MP" shows up on the forum is here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1425209
in a thread started on 10-12-2013 05:09 PM

When I Googled "How much MP does Shroud of Saints give back" my very first result is this reddit link which shows 212 MP / 3 seconds.

Also, if you read the second link you posted (this one) it also says "212 total mana regen using shroud"

It's just a matter of a person using the right search engine tools to find the right information and being able to look for specific points. Nothing too fancy.

Again, the game doesn't even say it recovers MP, perhaps that's why people keep asking. In fact, most of the information you see about Refresh is for FFXI. When you look for FFXIV refresh you get a lot of "how do I recover MP" questions on THIS forum.

This is a point of contention I will agree with. Anyone unfamiliar with XI won't know "Refresh" is a spell from XI used for MP Regeneration. In fact, I don't think the term "Refresh" is used anywhere except on Shroud of Saints and the tooltip should be changed to adjust that.

So... let's just make a chart.


Missing data is just me getting sick of waiting for a FATE to pop.

I'm, uh, not sure what you're trying to prove at this moment aside from trying to verify all the different data point levels for Shroud. Which is commendable, but not sure how that's useful for the current discussion.

[KisaiTenshi]

Rather than knowing the values (or not), Kisa's been providing false information. Take the potion reference for example:


This isn't about nitpicking on numbers or knowing math. Kisa is presenting numbers that aren't close to what they actually are.

On the contrary. All the Shroud of Saints at Potency 60, without taking into account the Natural Healing rate are just over 20%. Only the level 49 and 50 ones are significantly more than 20%.