Healers forever gimped

[Spoekes]

I don't have my SCH at 50 yet...

Nice detail considering you're always jumping into these discussions talking about SCH without firsthand knowledge.

And nowhere did I state it was going to give a minimum 20% of the caster's MP, I stated that the 460 points (from the Hi-Elixir),and has a same 20% maximum that the Aetherflow quotes. Hence the game's designed around having a 20% margin of error since you should be able to do all the non-raid bosses without using pots.

Given one's play style, WHM is meant for reactive healing, while SCH is meant for anticipation of incoming damage by placing shields before damage hits (thus having to heal less.) The average player is not that good. If they are wasting more than 20% of their MP on one job they should try the other, and if they still can't figure out how not to waste MP, then they should probably not play a caster class to begin with.

So form 20% on this and that, you deduct a 20% margin of error in the game, which in turn translates to "you're a bad caster if your wasting more than 20% mana".
Marvellous.

[KisaiTenshi]

Nice detail considering you're always jumping into these discussions talking about SCH without firsthand knowledge.

The only thing that needed to be said in this thread is "Shroud of Saints" recovers MP on WHM. Aetherflow/Energy Drain Recovers MP on SCH, and the pots have longer cooldowns than either of these. But no, the nerds had to pull out their calculators and nitpick every last detail... stuff that is completely irrelevant to someone who isn't raiding.

So form 20% on this and that, you deduct a 20% margin of error in the game, which in turn translates to "you're a bad caster if your wasting more than 20% mana".
Marvellous.

I don't know what you are trying to insinuate. If you need to use use pots or MP recovery on trash mobs, your party is broken. If the developers intent was to use the items as a spammable item, the dungeons would be designed with that in mind and be "hardcore" harder. It's not very fun to be held hostage to the price of pots just to play anything but the bunny hill.

[Ghishlain]

The only thing that needed to be said in this thread is "Shroud of Saints" recovers MP on WHM. Aetherflow/Energy Drain Recovers MP on SCH, and the pots have longer cooldowns than either of these. But no, the nerds had to pull out their calculators and nitpick every last detail... stuff that is completely irrelevant to someone who isn't raiding.

No, the "nerds" pulled out the calculators to prove how factually inaccurate your statement was. You already stated yourself that both Shroud of Saints, Aetherflow, and Energy Drain recovers MP. However, the numbers you used and the comparisons you put forward were horrible and needed to be corrected so forum users can get the right information and make proper use of the information.

I don't know what you are trying to insinuate. If you need to use use pots or MP recovery on trash mobs, your party is broken. If the developers intent was to use the items as a spammable item, the dungeons would be designed with that in mind and be "hardcore" harder. It's not very fun to be held hostage to the price of pots just to play anything but the bunny hill.

What Spoekes is insinuating is this comment:

They wouldn't make the game impossible, and clearly the margin of error is 20%

...was pulled completely outta thin air due to you seeing "20%" on so many abilities and items.

Any healer's "margin of error" in any fight should be any supplemental MP they wish you have beyond what's necessary for the fight (ie. T10 requires 10K MP? Then I'll have enough PIE/CDs to allow about 11K MP as a 'margin of error'). This will differ between player to player with most optimal healers attempting to be as close to 0 MP as possible by the time the fight ends.

[KisaiTenshi]

No, the "nerds" pulled out the calculators to prove how factually inaccurate your statement was. You already stated yourself that both Shroud of Saints, Aetherflow, and Energy Drain recovers MP. However, the numbers you used and the comparisons you put forward were horrible and needed to be corrected so forum users can get the right information and make proper use of the information.

No they pulled out the calculators on page 2 before I even commented in this thread. That's why I said I wasn't going to, and then wound up having to because a few people on the forum are insecure about their ability to play the game nicely with strangers.

[Cynfael]

But no, the nerds had to pull out their calculators and nitpick every last detail... stuff that is completely irrelevant to someone who isn't raiding.

Pulling the nerd card is the last and least effective resort of the player backed into a corner by their own faulty logic and reasoning. Besides, calling out fellow video game players discussing gameplay on official forums for being nerdy is pretty damned hypocritical.

Also, why are raiding players the only ones who would care about having accurate information?

If you're wrong about something, just own up to it and move on.

[KisaiTenshi]

Pulling the nerd card is the last and least effective resort of the player backed into a corner by their own faulty logic and reasoning. Besides, calling out fellow video game players discussing gameplay on official forums for being nerdy is pretty damned hypocritical.

Also, why are raiding players the only ones who would care about having accurate information?

If you're wrong about something, just own up to it and move on.

I could be saying the sky is blue and you'd be telling me it's not and that it's Azure. If you think I'm so wrong, "show me your work" as they say in education.

Where in the game does it say 212MP/tick, seems like this number comes entirely from Reddit. It says Potency 80, which you get at level 48, before that it's 60 at level 38. The amount recovered when you are in combat and when you are not in combat will be completely different, since MP and HP regenerate at different speeds when you're in and out of combat.

Potency is not a fixed value like Aetherflow's is. Let me go BACK to the same training dummy and do this again, since you still think I'm pulling numbers out of thin air.

WHM: Level 50, normal ilevel 120/130 gear
Total MP: 4353, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 87 (87/4353 = 0.0199), out of combat 261 (0.0599)
MP recovered once Shroud of Saints begins:
144,231,318,530,617,829,916,1128,1215,1427,1514,1726
87+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212, That is a total of 1582, of which only 5 ticks are 212. Let's drop that first tick to compare with the next set. So 1495.

WHM: Level 50, no gear except ilevel 100 blue weapon
Total MP: 3752, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 75 (75/3752 = 0.0199), out of combat, 225 (0.0599)
122+197+409+484+696+771+983+1058+1270+1345+1557
75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212=1435, again of which only 5 ticks are 212.

Note the Shroud of Saints text says 15 seconds. If Shroud is not activated, the same 15 seconds recovers 375MP. Those Shroud of Saints ticks are in between each MP recovery tick.

So how is this any different from what I posted last time? It ISN'T. 15 seconds recovers 10% of your MP normally, and with Shroud it you end up with 38%(1435/3752) without gear, and 34%(1495/4353) with gear.


Compare that with the Scholar who recovers 20%, flat by Activating Aetherflow regardless. The description for Energy drain is "Potency 150, recovers 50% as HP, recovers MP", which is doubles the amount of MP recovered by energy drain at level 36. You get Aetherflow at level 6, and Energy drain at level 8.
Doing exactly the same thing on SCH:

SCH:47 (MP:3113) geared, Aetherflow off, in combat. Has same 2% MP regeneration rate as WHM
145,207,269,331,393,455 over 15 seconds
62+62+62+62+62=310MP
622 is recovered from Aetherflow, 228x3 is recovered from Energy drain, total 1616 (52%)

SCH 47 (MP:2890),Gear off, Aetherflow and energy drain activated, in combat
229,864,921,1149,1206,1434,1491,1719,1776 over 15 seconds
633+57+228+57+228+57+228+57 = 1547MP , since we want 5 ticks of natural MP recovery to make a fair comparison with above, I'll add one more. 285MP from natural recovery, 633 from Aetherflow's 20%, 228*3 from Energy Drain. 1602 Total. That's 55%.

Same main hand weapon was used for both. If I switch to another weapon, where it changes total MP to 3178, the initial Aetherflow amount is different, but the Energy Drain is not affected.


The difference between WHM and SCH in this scenario is that Aetherflow is only affected by the maximum MP, while energy drain is more like Shroud of Saint's ticks and recovers the same amount of MP regardless of gear. 3 seconds = 1 tick.

And as I said before, it's an apples and oranges comparison because Shroud of Saints will tick regardless of what you're doing, while Energy Drain has a recast time, so you can't cast something else at the same time. Players may find more value in not using Energy Drain. Otherwise they could pretty much recover their entire MP in the same time frame it would take a WHM to use Shroud of Saints twice.

And now the post is full of TL;DNR. Hence why I referred to the long walls of text and numbers as "pulling out calculators" Nobody should care what the exact numbers are, just what they do.

And Raiding players are the only ones who actually seem to care about maximizing cooldowns. The rest of the content in the game you have enough room for error at the minimum ilevel to not need to maximize use of MP recovery.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Is it me or is Kisa just contradicting and disproving his own posts?

[Ghishlain]

Funny enough, now you're talking a bit more sense though your logic is still slightly faulty (not as faulty as normal).

Here are your two original insinuations:

1. Aetherflow and Shroud of Saints recover roughly the same amount of MP
2. They wouldn't make the game impossible, and clearly the margin of error is 20%

Which was refuted, heavily.

Let's get the easy question in your latest response out of the way since it's an easy answer:

Where in the game does it say 212MP/tick

You actually proved that in your math just now. If we make the assumption that Shroud tick is separate from native MP regeneration ticks (as you have mentioned):

Those Shroud of Saints ticks are in between each MP recovery tick.

. . .and we look at your math:

WHM: Level 50, normal ilevel 120/130 gear
Total MP: 4353, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 87 (87/4353 = 0.0199), out of combat 261 (0.0599)
MP recovered once Shroud of Saints begins:
144,231,318,530,617,829,916,1128,1215,1427,1514,1726
87+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212, That is a total of 1582, of which only 5 ticks are 212. Let's drop that first tick to compare with the next set. So 1495.

WHM: Level 50, no gear except ilevel 100 blue weapon
Total MP: 3752, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 75 (75/3752 = 0.0199), out of combat, 225 (0.0599)
122+197+409+484+696+771+983+1058+1270+1345+1557
75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212=1435, again of which only 5 ticks are 212.

Shroud recovers MP over 15 seconds. Each tick is at 3 seconds so Shroud gets back 5 ticks of 212mp / tick for a total of 1,060 mp / Shroud usage.

Now, about "Aetherflow and Shroud of Saints recover roughly the same amount of MP"

Your math and conclusions:

WHM: Level 50, normal ilevel 120/130 gear
Total MP: 4353, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 87 (87/4353 = 0.0199), out of combat 261 (0.0599)
MP recovered once Shroud of Saints begins:
144,231,318,530,617,829,916,1128,1215,1427,1514,1726
87+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212+87+212, That is a total of 1582, of which only 5 ticks are 212. Let's drop that first tick to compare with the next set. So 1495.

WHM: Level 50, no gear except ilevel 100 blue weapon
Total MP: 3752, Natural MP recovery speed in combat: 75 (75/3752 = 0.0199), out of combat, 225 (0.0599)
122+197+409+484+696+771+983+1058+1270+1345+1557
75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212+75+212=1435, again of which only 5 ticks are 212.

Note the Shroud of Saints text says 15 seconds. If Shroud is not activated, the same 15 seconds recovers 375MP. Those Shroud of Saints ticks are in between each MP recovery tick.

So how is this any different from what I posted last time? It ISN'T. 15 seconds recovers 10% of your MP normally, and with Shroud it you end up with 38%(1435/3752) without gear, and 34%(1495/4353) with gear.


Compare that with the Scholar who recovers 20%, flat by Activating Aetherflow regardless. The description for Energy drain is "Potency 150, recovers 50% as HP, recovers MP", which is doubles the amount of MP recovered by energy drain at level 36. You get Aetherflow at level 6, and Energy drain at level 8.
Doing exactly the same thing on SCH:

SCH:47 (MP:3113) geared, Aetherflow off, in combat. Has same 2% MP regeneration rate as WHM
145,207,269,331,393,455 over 15 seconds
62+62+62+62+62=310MP
622 is recovered from Aetherflow, 228x3 is recovered from Energy drain, total 1616 (52%)

SCH 47 (MP:2890),Gear off, Aetherflow and energy drain activated, in combat
229,864,921,1149,1206,1434,1491,1719,1776 over 15 seconds
633+57+228+57+228+57+228+57 = 1547MP , since we want 5 ticks of natural MP recovery to make a fair comparison with above, I'll add one more. 285MP from natural recovery, 633 from Aetherflow's 20%, 228*3 from Energy Drain. 1602 Total. That's 55%.

Logically, you should remove "native MP regeneration" from your math. When you're trying to compare one cool down to another, you should be looking at the total MP or % MP those cooldowns give back to their respective healer. The two healers will always regain the same % of MP back natively because of how the mechanics work.

Second, when we take 10% out from each of your math, we're looking at WHM doing 24% to 28% MP recovered versus your SCH doing 42% to 45%

Third, Shroud is a two minute cool down. This means a SCH has the potential to get two full Aetherflows out in that period of time, giving SCH a 84% to 90% MP restoration in two minutes versus your WHM's 24% to 28%.

Fourth your numbers will change immensely if you need to use your Aetherflow stacks on anything that isn't Energy Drain. However, even if you take out Energy Drain from the equation (which accounts for about half of the MP restored) a SCH will still recover 42% to 45% of their MP back in two minutes versus WHMs 24% to 28%.

This runs contrary to your comment about:

Aetherflow and Shroud of Saints recover roughly the same amount of MP

On to point #2:

They wouldn't make the game impossible, and clearly the margin of error is 20%

The point of contention about this 20% is the fact you ARE pulling it out of the air because you see 20% on Aetherflow, Hi-Elixirs, and X-Ethers. I could pretty much make the same arguement using your logic stating:

"Oh, since Ethers and Hi-Ethers give back 28% of your MP, the margin of error is 28%"

It's not. That's why your logic is fault as it's an arbitrary value you pulled from the error to suit your logic.

And now the post is full of TL;DNR. Hence why I referred to the long walls of text and numbers as "pulling out calculators" Nobody should care what the exact numbers are, just what they do.

And Raiding players are the only ones who actually seem to care about maximizing cooldowns. The rest of the content in the game you have enough room for error at the minimum ilevel to not need to maximize use of MP recovery.

People do care because some people want to understand how the game works. This allows them to make educated opinions on some aspects of the game like how to play their job, how they can make suggestions on how to balance certain aspects of a class, or just determine how broken something may be.

How do you think S-E does their balancing? It's certainly by "not caring about exact numbers".

[EDIT]

Is it me or is Kisa just contradicting and disproving his own posts?

Yes, yes s/he is. Which makes me a little sad because I get the impression Kisa means well, just their explanations and logic are lacking and needs to be corrected to make "appropriate conclusions".

[Spoekes]

Did you not notice that you start with bashing the 212 MP/tick talking about potency and stuff...
... and then ended up with 212 per tick in your testing? Or am I understanding you wrong?

Situations where you use Energy Drain are rare and you usually don't plan all stacks for MP reg.

It's not apples and oranges.
If you don't want to join a discussion where some people are talking about the actual facts and numbers, don't join it!
Who are you to tell us what we should care about?

[KisaiTenshi]

Did you not notice that you start with bashing the 212 MP/tick talking about potency and stuff...
... and then ended up with 212 per tick in your testing? Or am I understanding you wrong?

Situations where you use Energy Drain are rare and you usually don't plan all stacks for MP reg.

It's not apples and oranges.
If you don't want to join a discussion where some people are talking about the actual facts and numbers, don't join it!
Who are you to tell us what we should care about?

Did you not notice how absolutely nobody in the thread till me showed where they got 212MP from? Even googling for it, everyone points back to a reddit post made 2 months after the game was running. And nothing in the game actually says how it's calculated. I don't know about you but I don't feel like running all over the place chasing FATE's to level sync to just to sit around and count the numbers yet again. At least with the training dummies I can walk away to reset.

And no I'm not contradicting anything I said earlier about the MP recovery. Lots of people in the thread have level 50 characters and several keep answering the questions like everyone has to absolutely minmax everything or they are playing bad. That scares people away from the job, and hence why we get so many poor tanks and healers, because these people are only jumping in to get a faster queue and don't care about playing well.

People do care because some people want to understand how the game works. This allows them to make educated opinions on some aspects of the game like how to play their job, how they can make suggestions on how to balance certain aspects of a class, or just determine how broken something may be.

How do you think S-E does their balancing? It's certainly by "not caring about exact numbers".

I'm pretty sure they use a bell curve and decide that 80% of players must be able to clear the duty within the allotted time with the minimum ilevel. Everyone else should be able to clear the content by exceeding the minimum ilevel.

Yes, yes s/he is. Which makes me a little sad because I get the impression Kisa means well, just their explanations and logic are lacking and needs to be corrected to make "appropriate conclusions".

Sarcasm aside, I don't jump into threads to derail them, rather people seem to keep quoting stuff out of nowhere and not sourcing where it is in the game, so when someone can't replicate the conditions, or the casual observation is not matching what people are just pulling out of nowhere, it's going to be contested. I'd have been content to have not even post a second time in this thread had someone actually gone "not quite 20%, here's me testing it..." rather than be insulted at every opportunity.