White mage remain gimp because the can go scholar on real content?

[Ghishlain]

DarkmoonVael and Cynfael pretty much hit the nail in the head, Vlady. You're getting a lot of antagonizing responses because you're making said a claim that is implying that WHM is broken beyond repair and have very little to actually back it up. It's like me absurdly proclaiming the following:

"All SCHs should just change to SMN for added DPS. You're only contributing traited Virus and Eye for an Eye and letting the WHM do the rest, so might as well contribute more DPS."

I will agree that I do see more SCHs now a days. Since we are on the same data cluster though, here are a few things I've been seeing.

Today I did my Trial DR on WHM, got paired with a WHM
Went into WoD and found 4 SCHs versus 2 WHMs
When I was helping a few FC mates doing their books and was going as a tank, I was paired with a SCH for both Copperbell HM and Brayflox HM.
Recently and on two separate occasions - I was the only WHM in an entire WoD alliance.

It's not a large sample size but any stretch of the imagination, but it is a trend I've noticed recently and could be attributed to a couple of things:

(1) Healers prefer SCH more than WHM
(2) SMNs not wanting to face the DPS queue for X reason are playing SCH to beat the queue
(3) Our Data Cluster just happens to have more SCH players versus WHM players - other data cluster may be different
etc etc

Overall, the general consensus is the two healer classes are very synergistic and little should change until we see how Heavensward re-balances the healing game.

[Vlady]

DarkmoonVael and Cynfael pretty much hit the nail in the head, Vlady. You're getting a lot of antagonizing responses because you're making said a claim that is implying that WHM is broken beyond repair and have very little to actually back it up. It's like me absurdly proclaiming the following:

"All SCHs should just change to SMN for added DPS. You're only contributing traited Virus and Eye for an Eye and letting the WHM do the rest, so might as well contribute more DPS."

I will agree that I do see more SCHs now a days. Since we are on the same data cluster though, here are a few things I've been seeing.

Today I did my Trial DR on WHM, got paired with a WHM
Went into WoD and found 4 SCHs versus 2 WHMs
When I was helping a few FC mates doing their books and was going as a tank, I was paired with a SCH for both Copperbell HM and Brayflox HM.
Recently and on two separate occasions - I was the only WHM in an entire WoD alliance.

It's not a large sample size but any stretch of the imagination, but it is a trend I've noticed recently and could be attributed to a couple of things:

(1) Healers prefer SCH more than WHM
(2) SMNs not wanting to face the DPS queue for X reason are playing SCH to beat the queue
(3) Our Data Cluster just happens to have more SCH players versus WHM players - other data cluster may be different
etc etc

Overall, the general consensus is the two healer classes are very synergistic and little should change until we see how Heavensward re-balances the healing game.

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

[Cynfael]

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

I thought the rest of the thread had made this somewhat clear, but here's the short response:

1. Lustrate is an amazing tool. However, it doesn't infringe on the WHM's niche of quickly recovering large amounts of raid HP.

2. SCHs without skilled and trustworthy WHM allies don't get nearly as much DPS accomplished outside of faceroll content (the type of content where the WHM can typically make up for comparative lack of boss DPS by Holybombing trash up and down the dungeon).

3. Again, having other people declare that they agree with you does not automatically make your points more correct. Is this supposed to be a debate or an opinion poll?

[Ghishlain]

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

I don't think anyone here has disputed the fact that SCH is a better tank healer than WHM is, just because of Fairy + Physick/Adlo + Lustrate is incredible healing power in a single GCD for the MP consumed. But when it comes to raid wide damage, SCH isn't going to do jack all in any short period of time compared to White Mage. You have a finite amount of Lustrates at your disposal at any given time and healing an 8-man raid with Lustrates? Nope, that won't happen.

This is why the White Mage + Scholar duo works so well. The SCH is there to prevent as much front end damage as possible and reduce the risk of any death, and then the WHM is there to bring everyone back to healthy levels of HP in a short period of time so they aren't killed by potential incidental damage soon afterwards.

This synergistic bond is also what allows a SCH to go ham over fist DPS on a raid target - behind every powerful SCH there's an equally as powerful WHM keeping the raid healthy and fighting. You can't have one without the other.

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

Refer to Cynfael's comment.

[DarkmoonVael]

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all..

If I have the people who took my survey back me up would that make me more right some how?

In the content being referred to here, the WHM will provide significantly more dps whilst being able to solo heal the entire party. The ability to use medica 2, regen the tank then dps in dungeons and Crystal Tower raids far outweighs a SCH being used for this content. Doing this does require a high level of skill and attentivness on he part of WHM.

Lustrate actually doesnt blow anything the whm brings out of the water. In raids, you do not get the luxury of using aetherflow on lustrate whenever you feel like it. The abilities those 3 stacks have to use used on over the next minute has to be planned, and does include having to use it on sacred soil and energy drain. So again, you are arguing from magic christmas land with sch and lustarte, rather than using the argument in reality. Regen and medica 2 are phenomenally powerful abilities in their own right, and a WHM who actually has the skill to use benediction properly can work miracles. Also, WHM stoneskin is actually needed to be used during raids when pushing progression.

As for how both healers DPS, the WHM is the strongest in terms of aoe and burst damage. This means in the content you keep referring to, its actually the preferred healer to dps. In dungeons, the mobs have low hp and die quickly to holy spam. The low HP also means that the sch does not get a chance to do amazing dps on them due to the nature of their dot based dps, it takes time to do any significant damage to enemies. In Crystal Tower, the whm will deal more damage to the trash mobs with holy than the sch does with their dots. Once again this is down to how fast the mobs die and how long it takes sch dps to get going. SCH is also severely hampered in the same way SMN is with bane having a finite amount of targets that it hits. With bosses in the content you are talking about, both healers, when played to the same skill level, should push out the same dps whilst keeping the party healthy.

And now, you really need to address some of the spurious claims you have made and ignored the replies to:

Please show how the SCH heals for the same amount as WHM does in raids, making WHM redundant

Please show how the SCH out DPS' the WHM in all content

Please show how significantly more people play SCH over WHM in "relevant" content.


Can you please offer some relevant data/experience to these claims, in stead of all this doomsaying?

Well, it's a "bit" old (August 2014, apparently), but White Mages did outnumber Scholars at that point. Who knows what it looks like 9 months later. Damn though, Scholar numbers exploded over a year!

Yeah back in 2.0 the scholar was very janky to play with a pet that really had fallen down the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down, and was also very misunderstood in terms of mitigation/preventative healer. The changes made to scholar since then certainly have helped make the SCH population healthier. Also, iirc correctly, there were slides of how many people levelled arcanist as well as how many people played summoners. The data that could be extracted was that a significantly high portion of the people who levelled arcanist used it for summoner......but then again, how times have changed for that one as well .

[radioactive_lego]

^ I'd bet those who "main" a healer choose WHM 2:1 over SCH.

I'd also bet those who would identify themselves as "occasional" healers prefer SCH to WHM 3:1.

Furthermore, I'll bet a good portion of those WHM mains go and stay 'Logi when it becomes an option, while the SCH crowd will give a giant rats ass there is another healer role.

Speculations and bets are easy, and that's all I've done here today. Now I'll find another thread people should ignore me on.

[Alkimi]

The reason healers go for scholar more then white mage is because of the power curve. Can provide much needed dps while providing constant healing with more forgiving abilities like Lustrate. Lustrate blows anything the white healer can bring to the table right now when white mages should be the strong healer. Scholar cannot take it all.

The only thing Lustrate brings is it's instant cast time. It barely heals for more than Cure II on tanks and for way less on other jobs. Honestly with a good WHM as your co healer you'll often find yourself using your stacks on Energy Drain just to get rid of them and do a bit more dps.