White mage remain gimp because the can go scholar on real content?

[Vlady]

The WHM brings the most powerful heals in the game. Tell me, do you also complain about BLM only bringing powerful DPS to a raid?

And no, SCH does not deal with mega flares and giga flares, thats the WHM who does that, with the help of a sacred soil. The SCH is usually taking advantage of the WHM powerful heals then and is DPSing, with selene out....you know....the fairy that brings buffs and very little healing with her? That one, yeah......

So your argument....maybe a bit misinformed perhaps.

Edit: plus, you don even have a WHM, so maybe go unlock it and play it in coil, which you seem to have not been in either.

Elitism much?

[Vlady]

It's like saying you can't vote because you never served in office. If anything if you want to go by your logic if I paid 40 million Gil to buy a savage bc run I should be automatically given status of what I say is automatically correct?

People can make educated opinions based on playing a job without having down the latest content despite this imaginary requirement some elitist think before someone should be given a voice.

Anyhow back to the issue. White mages heal fine I never said they did not. They just need something else that let's them have have some utility that isn't outshines by scholar or nerf scholar pet in cleric stance.

[DarkmoonVael]

Let me take out my succor and virus and see how you like either of these options their ''GODLY WHM'' 1.)Someone dying or 2.) wasting our MP to patch up heals that I could mitigate with o I dunno SUCCOR AND VIRUS not to mention Fey for +30% MDEF and Then Sacred soil ....you know you named the worst buff out of all our buffs ? SCH deals with Giga Flares .......Period

So the succor which shields for 570hp @ i130 BiS with a virus that can be dealt with by a SMN. So let me get this right, you seem to think that one succor and virus is dealing with giga flare? So what about the 3000+ hp after that everyone needs to be healed up by? What about that? Hmmmm maybe you should pay attention to whats actually happening. And as for Sacred Soil being so bad, then why is it as a SCH, we use it on every giga flare in t13, and every mega flare in phase 2 as well? And fey covenant is only available with eos, most raid groups tend to push with Selene. And dont forget Dragon Kick and Storms Path as well maybe?

The manner in which he was claiming SCH deals with mega flares and giga flare solo is not true at all.

But thanks for proving my point here about the blindness some people have when they play their class?

It's like saying you can't vote because you never served in office. If anything if you want to go by your logic if I paid 40 million Gil to buy a savage bc run I should be automatically given status of what I say is automatically correct?

People can make educated opinions based on playing a job without having down the latest content despite this imaginary requirement some elitist think before someone should be given a voice.

Anyhow back to the issue. White mages heal fine I never said they did not. They just need something else that let's them have have some utility that isn't outshines by scholar or nerf scholar pet in cleric stance.

Your analogy is so flawed its not even funny. What i am saying is that the claim he is making about WHM is based on absolutely no experience what so ever using the class, and seems to be an opinion based on nothing but second hand opinions. Also, in his post he stated catagorically how mechanics in t13 are handled, which in itself is wrong. So perhaps you should ask where these "facts" come from. Now you call me an elitist, i would rather be called that than a charlatan, which a lot of people seem to becoming here, you included.

That is neglecting the effects of a scholars damage reduction. However. I dont think the discussion is about the viability of having both a white mage and a scholar. But rather that if you were to have to choose, the scholar would perform far better in most scenarios.


His argument that if scholars stacked better with each other; then white mages would not be viable: is correct.
Consider the effect it has that she focusses more on dps. And consider how it is possible.
Needless to say if a healer focusses more on dps, then yes they will heal less.

That said, considering the level of expertise of which you boast; you should be well aware that a scholars primairy strengths are not her pets healing.

No actually, that's not what this is about. Read the first post and you will find OP's stance being:

Alot of people are stating at how white mages are fine and bring the raw healing to the table in progression but is that really the issue? White mages are weaker on everything when compared to scholars and the only real draw back is stacking issues from other scholars with shields.

Now please pay attention to the statement that white mages are weaker than scholars on everything. Now this clearly is not the case, and has been demonstrated to not be the case by many people in this thread.

And now to humour you, a (non exhaustive) list of SCH pros and cons:

PROS:

Best damage mitigation healer in he game.
Able to push out respectable DPS and use a pet/lustrate unhindered by cleric stance.
Able to buff party DPS
Able to buff party healing out-put for a short time (note this buff does not effect fairies at all)
Very high single target healing capabilities.
3 resourses to manage, making MP issues slightly moribund.
Traited Virus and Eye for an Eye.

CONS:
Very weak AoE healing capabilities.
Choice has to be made about which fairy to use, you can have either dps buff or healing buff with AoE regen, not both.
Very very bad at digging the group out of bad situations with mass damage happening.
Has to rely on WHM to solo heal/near solo heal to be able to push out dps in Raids.
Not very good at healing more than 2 targets.
Sub-optimal pet reactions.

It's more like saying that you can't credibly criticize a public official on foreign policy when you have little understanding of foreign policy, yourself.

It's not elitist to suggest that your opinion would be more educated and more relevant if you had the experience to fully back it up.

Actually its more like criticisng a public offical for making decisions on a topic that they have no first hand experience with as well as poorly researched, and have then issued a public bill that is woefully inaccurate.

[Cynfael]

It's like saying you can't vote because you never served in office.

It's more like saying that you can't credibly criticize a public official on foreign policy when you have little understanding of foreign policy, yourself.

It's not elitist to suggest that your opinion would be more educated and more relevant if you had the experience to fully back it up.

[Vlady]

You saw my analogy is flawed. You say that my logic is flawed that I cannot give an opinion which if I was to ask one of the people I do talk with about this issue to back me up would you character assassinate that person as well despite him/her having all fights on farm? If it were not for the stacking issues with scholar then the white mage would not even be needed and most groups would go double scholar then.

That is the only thing that makes white mages relevant in the power curve that scholar has over the white mage. It is not that white mages are broken by any means because they can heal anything in the game. The issue is the way the mechanics and everything else in the game is shifting from needing that pure healing and that versatility that the scholar provides (since scholars can provide the amount of healing required for every raid in the game same as white mage) puts them ahead of the curve. It will become even worse once the third healer which will be built with how boss mechanics are coming into play as part of the job which further negates a pure healer that does not provide anything worthwhile.

Every DF group you go into the scholar will outnumber the white mage in every category. People will play what is the most powerful and right now it is hands down scholar in both pve and pve instances.

[DarkmoonVael]

You saw my analogy is flawed. You say that my logic is flawed that I cannot give an opinion which if I was to ask one of the people I do talk with about this issue to back me up would you character assassinate that person as well despite him/her having all fights on farm? If it were not for the stacking issues with scholar then the white mage would not even be needed and most groups would go double scholar then.

That is the only thing that makes white mages relevant in the power curve that scholar has over the white mage. It is not that white mages are broken by any means because they can heal anything in the game. The issue is the way the mechanics and everything else in the game is shifting from needing that pure healing and that versatility that the scholar provides (since scholars can provide the amount of healing required for every raid in the game same as white mage) puts them ahead of the curve. It will become even worse once the third healer which will be built with how boss mechanics are coming into play as part of the job which further negates a pure healer that does not provide anything worthwhile.

Every DF group you go into the scholar will outnumber the white mage in every category. People will play what is the most powerful and right now it is hands down scholar in both pve and pve instances.

The fact that you state that SCH healing numbers is equal to WHM kind of shows that your argument is flawed from the start. These 2 classes do not put out the same amount of HPS.

As for your DF anacdote, i haven't seen this at all. In fact, i have seen the opposite.

The next bit i will attempt to keep as civil as possible. First of all, you have the right to express any opinion you want to, as you have. What you dont have the right to is express this opinion unchallenged. If you want to express an opinion (and this entire thread is based on your opinion with very little factual evidence coming from you), then expect others to debate your inaccuracies. This is what is happening, if you dont like it then i would suggest only discussing your opinion with like minded people who will not question you.

Second of all, accusing someone of character assassination is a serious low. Again, people have the right to express what ever opinion they want to in public, they also have to accept the responsibility of what expressing this opinion can cause. Said person that you are trying to martyr right now expressed an opinion as a fact without any relevant experience in either playing the class or playing at the level that was pertinant to discussion. This being the case, credibility of said opinion can be brought up.

Third, if you want to have a serious discussion about this, then try not using such highly polemic language.

TL;DR dont start a thread based on your opinion and expect everyone to agree with you.

[Cynfael]

Vlady, you make a lot of sweeping statements that are actually opinions and present them as fact. For example, I do not believe that you have access to the metrics that could support or debunk your statement about SCHs being more common in any DF.

If you have an end-game friend who shares your opinions, he or she is welcome to share those views. However, their opinion doesn't automatically lend weight to your own.

Not all of your points are bad ones, but it's obvious from your comments that you don't really know about healing requirements. For example, FCOB has a much greater focus on healing than SCOB, and WHMs are, if anything, more valued than before for their efficient, powerful HP restoration.

[Raminax]

Well, it's a "bit" old (August 2014, apparently), but White Mages did outnumber Scholars at that point. Who knows what it looks like 9 months later. Damn though, Scholar numbers exploded over a year!

[firstsin]

Is that not because scholars were dps for the first 30 levels and most didn't even know how to heal.

[Raminax]

Well, obviously it doesn't tell us anything besides showing how many people play Scholar and White Mage in comparison to each other. For all we know it could merely be that X and Y have Scholar and White Mage leveled, but never actually use those jobs when doing stuff.

Still, it just looked amusing at first glance.