Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

[enil]

I'm not sure what the the discussion re: specific dps numbers is for?
If you are trying to determine who is contributing most dps, you can't really ignore the fact that the BRD gains up to 8% dps from DRG's piercing debuff, which really makes the numbers you are throwing around moot.

Melee are good at single target, additional targets favour range dps with their low ramp up time, mechanics that favour multiple mobs and obviously because they are ranged - hence the shorter fights time more and more skew towards range since more time is spent on multi targets relatively.

There is an argument to be made about DRG AoE when supplied with infinite TP though, it's pretty good, would like to test it if we ran NIN.

[rickyguo]

I been doing 7mans for the last like 3 months so I can't give you numbers unfortunately.

Maybe kurama can do it.

[Skeith-Adeline]

Those were dark days for the Dragoon.

>.>
<.<
I miss those days
>.>

[Sleigh]

I'm not sure what the the discussion re: specific dps numbers is for?
If you are trying to determine who is contributing most dps, you can't really ignore the fact that the BRD gains up to 8% dps from DRG's piercing debuff, which really makes the numbers you are throwing around moot.

Melee are good at single target, additional targets favour range dps with their low ramp up time, mechanics that favour multiple mobs and obviously because they are ranged - hence the shorter fights time more and more skew towards range since more time is spent on multi targets relatively.

There is an argument to be made about DRG AoE when supplied with infinite TP though, it's pretty good, would like to test it if we ran NIN.

Oh trust me I think DRG is worth the raid slot over MNK in T10-12, and arguably over a second NIN but we don't have a geared second NIN so we don't use it regardless. They are the best LB user, contribute literally 40 DPS or so extra every turn, and their damage is "fine." That said, on an individual level, DRG's gonna be on the lower end due to the LBing and a % of its expected DPS being tied up in BRD DPS (something which bugs me and my raid group, why NIN is doing MNK level DPS while contributing more than 100 extra raid DPS from TA in high DPS groups while DRG does less than MNK DPS and contributes only 30-50 DPS extra ...).

It's just strange to me there's this rebuttal that DRG isn't lowest DPS other than SMN or average BRDs who aren't doing well above 600 on a dummy with Disembowel applied. Would like to see similar situations to my group, that's all.

[rickyguo]

I mean like I said, if your dragoon is parsing less than your bard and blackmage in t10-t12, then either he is doing something wrong or your bard is refusing to play paeon. He's probably doing less than your ninja or monk because you're making him lb. If he doesn't and he's not bad, he should be similar or identical to both monk and ninja.

This is not counting in the disembowel damage for the bard by the way. Also, on the individual level, LBing isn't forced to be a job of the dragoon. Your ninja can do it. You can also do it as monk without losing GL.

You keep mentioning that your dragoon is doing "less dps than monk" while I simply think your dragoons got issue pressing buttons. Either that or you're like using strategies that are disadvantageous to your melee for some reason.

A dragoon will do more damage than a bard on a a dummy. There is no arguments there, and that's if your bard is playing absolutely 0 paeon, which he will have to play at some point.

Dragoons got more dps right now than monks because they're similar without adjusting for disembowel bard dps. They're probably close to or similar to ninjas once you adjust for TA raid dps, which needs math done but I got doubts that it's 100 raid dps.

[Dervy]

Exactly. T10-T12 are essentially Dummy Fights. Melee's rarely do anything, but just DPS a single target. There's very little movement in any of those fights, excluding T12 P4. Even then, you can adjust your raid positioning to make it VERY melee friendly.

Either the strategy handling mechanics is bad, or the Dragoon isn't playing to the best of his ability.

Also, TA is around 2% overall raid DPS. It's a very over-hyped ability.

[Sleigh]

Rather than just exchange experiences, numbers would help a lot more or we'll just go in circles, since it seems I think BRD and BLM are stronger than you think and you think DRG is stronger than I think.

I will say though that we keep every fight as melee friendly as possible, max uptime, no duties, no fighting adds if it can be helped, and Paeon is played.

Also, TA is around 2% overall raid DPS. It's a very over-hyped ability.

It's not overhyped when SCH, WAR, and PLD are doing roughly 400 DPS each before TA, and WHM DPSes the entirety of the first TA. TA ramps up as your group as a whole does more damage, slightly less impressive when you're in a group with standard Shield Oath + Defiance WAR a large portion of the time.

[rickyguo]

I still highly doubt that it's going to be 100 raid dps.

Why don't you start with how much dps your blm and bard is doing in t10-t13?

My numbers will be skewed as I been doing 7mans as monk for the past months.

The issue is that I do about the same damage on DRG as I do on an equally geared monk. I also do similar numbers to a ninja.

You're basically saying that your BLM and BRD is doing more damage than monks, ninjas and dragoons in basically dummy fights and well, that's on your players pressing buttons.

[Dervy]

400 * 1.017 = 406.8 DPS for the Paladin - And even less actually, as afaik there isn't a time where a Ninjitsu perfectly lines up with a TA. Therefore it's not really (1+0.1*10/60), but closer to (1+0.1*10/75). Let's use Lucrezia's parse for example. Overall raid DPS = 3004.03 DPS. http://a.pomf.se/wsakcx.png

3004.03 = 0.983 = 2952.96149. It's 51 overall raid DPS in this situation with TA, approximately.

And here's some videos of really good Dragoon runs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqrmKqLGavI (Multiply those numbers by 0.983)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8-4GspLO2Y (And Aikaal is a monstrous BLM btw)

I believe it's Dawiesm who has some really high 550-590+ DPS parses on T10 and T11 somewhere in this thread as well.

http://i.imgur.com/9NGv1yY.png <- Arthurs DPS

I'm not saying that the Bard and Black Mage are weak in comparison. Not at all. My BLM is a monster. Aikaal is proof of what BLMs can achieve in FCoB. However, what I posted is what Dragoons should be achieving in Turn 10-11. If your Dragoon isn't pulling numbers close to what I posted, then he/she's clearly doing something wrong.

If I could be bothered, I'd find more numbers.

Do you have any videos of your raids with your Dragoon, Sleigh? It would be interesting to analyse what he/she is doing and maybe give some tips. I guarantee if the strategies you use are Melee friendly, then there's definitely room for improvement.

[Sleigh]

I still highly doubt that it's going to be 100 raid dps.

Why don't you start with how much dps your blm and bard is doing in t10-t13?

My numbers will be skewed as I been doing 7mans as monk for the past months.

The issue is that I do about the same damage on DRG as I do on an equally geared monk. I also do similar numbers to a ninja.

You're basically saying that your BLM and BRD is doing more damage than monks, ninjas and dragoons in basically dummy fights and well, that's on your players pressing buttons.

T10 - BRD 590, has done more but never on a clear since we've only had 2 clears since his Zeta. BLM 580. Sub-6m clear.
T11 - DRG beats us both. BLM 565, BRD 555. Just above 6m clear.
T12 - 3 Bennu group, no one attacks Blackfires but SCH, low downtime vs uptime due to clearing immediately after first dodge phase (IE a group where the fight lasts until near the second dodge phase, most individual numbers will be higher) in a 7m clear - BRD 540, BLM 530ish on average, was far different in 4 Bennu groups.
T13 - BRD and BLM both have done 510 with room for more if add phase didn't die so quickly, more average is 500 for both. Sub-11m clear.

BLM numbers are actually lower as our group DPS goes up, either by letting SCH take over certain roles or hitting the milk phases harder so less for BLM. BRD is high because of fast clear times = less Paeon uptime and sometimes good end time, but that's what I judge by. NIN beats us every turn but T13. DRG usually right below BLM, not far off.

400 * 1.017 = 406.8 DPS for the Paladin - And even less actually, as afaik there isn't a time where a Ninjitsu perfectly lines up with a TA. Therefore it's not really (1+0.1*10/60), but closer to (1+0.1*10/75). Let's use Lucrezia's parse for example. Overall raid DPS = 3004.03 DPS. http://a.pomf.se/wsakcx.png

Our raid DPS is over 3600 in T10.