Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?

[RobinRethiel]

A few things here... You said in an earlier post that you are a game designer. So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind? MMOs are RNG and grind. Heck, single-player RPGs are RNG and grind. That's just how it is. Reducing RNG and grind in a MMO makes the game less time consuming, which makes it so that everyone runs out of things to do, and leaves before the next patch. Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

As for the Gold Saucer, it has to have RNG and grind.

Strange question. RNG and grind is just there to buy time. It's there to avoid, that people play - for example - a dungeon one time, get their item and will not play it again, because there is nothing to get for them anymore.

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.
As said before, RNG can be a good thing, when it is used to bring some randomness into a game, so you don't have the exact same monsters at the same place and so on.
RNG in drop mechanic can also mean, that people are feeling lucky, because they get something they want - by luck.
On its downside, if there is no mechanic, which somehow guaranties an drop after a random amount of times, people begin to feel pranked, because no matter how hard they try, they never get what they want - by bad luck.

Good luck: fine.
Bad luck: very, very bad.

That is one of the core design rules of game design.
People like to have luck, so let them have luck, this will make them feel good and they will like the game.
People hate to have bad luck, so avoid the possibility for bad luck like hell, because it will make player feel bad and they will start to hate the game.

As written before:
If a game guarantees a win after 100 wins, but also got the possibility, that you get it earlier before, people go for that 100 wins and will feel good, when they don't need them. You got RNG, but not as core mechanic, but as an extra. -> Fine.
If you got something like Gaius, a card with a 1% drop chance, indeed people will feel lucky, who get it and even more lucky when they get it after the first try, what is indeed possible. But everyone who is doing this over and over and over again, 100, 200, 500, 1000 times, and never see it, will develop a grudge against the mechanic, the game, the developers. -> Bad.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

Grinding can be easily avoided, by providing a much wider spread source for such things and especially combining rewards with fun activities. Gold Saucer easily got this possibility, the problem is, that most of the fun activities are far too weak or pure RNG. Even the most optimal source needs an catastrophic grind, much worse than everything else seen in this - and many other - games.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

Grinding is not difficult. It's time consuming, that's all. A grind can easily be done by a bot. And that's the point. When you see as a developer, that people start to use bots, you should know, that something is not running smoothly, that the specific content is too boring (easy and repetitive). The optimal choice for a game designer is, to plan an element, people would even do without any reward. And then add an reward for the extra kick.

You don't need grind at all. Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years. So your point is invalid.

People are getting bored by grind. If they can only do a few specific things. That's why they leave. Square is doing a good job with content here. They can do an even better job, I'm sure of this and FF14 is young and there is a lot, which can and possibly will be added. No need to build in a grind. Grinding is simply just an ultra lazy game design. You stretch something, which would not last a single week to months. It's a dirty trick and while it works here and there, it stays bad game design. And I don't think, that Square needs this. I think, they are much better than that. They showed this often enough.

pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you. Take the hint, and stop accusing others of what you're very obviously guilty of.

As said, your opinion does not matter, because you got no point You are loud and team up, but this is no argument for anything. When everyone is crying for war and a single person is saying no, this one single person is still right. You are simply very egoistic, people who don't care for others, that's what you are saying in all your posts. You would lose NOTHING when Square would also look at the mass of other players. The would profit from this - and exactly that is the only point you got, that you don't want other players to profit, too. Pure egoism.

@ Vidu
Again, you refer to the title and do not care about the posts I made. So either you did not read them or you did not understand them. No matter what, your posts make no sense for me this way. When you ignore my posts, there is no point to have any conversation with you.
The point about lottery: I'm educated and informed about such things. It's actually even part of my job to know about them. "Evil" designers are indeed using psychological tricks. They are like drug dealers, you get something for free and then they milk you. There are many tricks like this you can use to trick people, making them addicted. If you don't care for such things, if you don't care for the problem, lottery is causing, it's fine. But then just admit this. - Yes, you can't get bankrupt in Eorza. Never said this. I'm writing here to Square to help them satisfying more players, not only a few grinders, who are easily to satisfy anyway. As said: just add a golden hat for 10.000.000 MGP, done. Happy grinding. Takes a few minutes, maybe a few hours, when you want to give it a special design. You have satisfied all the grinders and can leave the rest for normal and casual players, so for those, Gold Saucer was made for, listening to Square.

@ Madigari
Gold Saucer has never been a casino and if, it would be a bad one. A casino would have much more, would have poker, slot machines, roulette and many more. At max, Gold Saucer, as it is, is a lotto shop. What kind of casino shall that be, when you can only play 1 time per day and an addtional 1 time per week. The original Gold Saucer was a fun park. And the Gold Saucer in FF14 should be, too. It's on a good way, the grind and RNG is the only thing in the way.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like. There was not Lottery. There was just fun and you earned your GP this way. You could spend hours there, but not in a grind.

Also, I guess I chose my wording poorly. There doesn't have to be a grind here because it's a MMO, but because it rewards things in the MMO. If there is no grind, then the might as well send the Gambler and bunny outfits out to everyone via Moogle Mail.

How often I hear things like that. You tell people, that something is too extreme and then they take the other extreme to attack the critic. No, not for free. Just more in reach for the mass of normal gamers, who do not live in this game. It's vanity. Yes. Exactly. So there is really not need for such a massive grind.

They could just bring in more prizes, maybe some other vanity stuff you only got RNG till now. Or new vanitiy stuff, like color food for your race chocobo. Or the Onions for your own chocobo. It would add another source.

[Mordermi]

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like.

Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

1. The roulette bonus - It gives players bonus currency, which is used in some sort of grind. They are grinding currency for new gear. I don't understand how this avoids a grind.

2. Grinding - My statement about lowering the difficulty level to remove grinding in a single-player RPG was not due to difficulty of grinding. But without a grind, you would have to make it so that every enemy and boss battle is beatable at level 1, which would remove nearly all difficulty from the game.

3. Raising MGP rewards - I don't really see a problem with this, but you'd still have to repeat activities over and over again to reach your goal, which is grinding.

4. Online games - I'm not sure what you mean here. Like flash games? Games that aren't RPGs. Sure, there are a lot of games with no grind. Many old school games and flash games have no grind, but they are a completely different genre. The original Mario wasn't a grind. Neither is Cargo Bridge. But those aren't MMORPGs. Those have a beginning and an end. MMOs are supposed to go on forever. There has to be something to slow you down. You can't just beat all of the levels, and then be done. Though you say people play for years, so I don't think those are the games of which you speak. So can I assume F2P games? If so, I'm not sure where you get "thousand" from.

5. FFVII Gold Saucer - There were games, which were fun, and you earned GP from them. If you wanted to get the best prizes, then you needed to play these games over and over and over and over. How is that any different than the Gold Saucer in FFXIV, and how is that not a grind?

[RobinRethiel]

Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

It's grinding, when you have to do the same dungeons 200 times.
If you can chose from a variety of dungeons, it's less till no grindy.
If you even got more, other sources (equally effective), it's no grind anymore at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindin...ideo_gaming%29

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need a carrot.

I think it is all well within reach. I've earned 150k MGP already, and I play for 4-5 hours a week. That's hardly living in the game. It's only been two weeks. There will be more added to the Gold Saucer in the future.

4-5 hours a week? That would be 8-10 hours you spend in Goldsaucer, if you did nothing else. And you earned 150k MGP? How? Explain this, please. Or do you mean 4-5 hours a day?

[Mordermi]

It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need carrot.

Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

Edit: I've also purchased a lot of MGP with gil.. Scratch that. It doesn't count toward the earned MGP achievement.

[RobinRethiel]

Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

Lucky you @ 4 times 10k. That alone is worth over 4 hours of TT grind. I know dozens of players, who didn't win it a single time.

[Mordermi]

Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

Lucky you @ 4 times 10k. That alone is worth over 4 hours of TT grind. I know dozens of players, who didn't win it a single time.

Okay. I'm honestly asking this. How does a MMO not have grind, and stay in business? How does a MMO keep people from just blowing through all content, and then leaving?

[Brightsayge]

Okay. I'm honestly asking this. How does a MMO not have grind, and stay in business? How does a MMO keep people from just blowing through all content, and then leaving?

exactly, the grind is what makes older content relevant. you have to revisit the low level dungeons, you have to keep doing fates and hunts.

[Snugglebutt]

Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

Need I remind you that your thread is mini-lottery maybe a bit more 'fair' not mini-lottery maybe a bit more 'fun', people went to great lengths to explain to you that it is fair for a lottery style mini game but you just ignored, dismissed or refused to take what they said on board. Fun on the other hand is subjective, your personal preference for what makes something fun is not always the same as another persons, this game caters to more than just yourself. Some people find fun in working hard to achieve something aka chasing the carrot on the stick, some find fun in gambling like taking a chance or trying your luck which may or may not pay off, some find fun in high risk and some low risk ventures/activities (mini lottery in this game is quick, low risk easy profit on pretty much every ticket).

If there was no 'carrot' you would not even be doing the mini cactpot if your honest about it because you clearly do not consider it fun even with the level of carrot reward currently attached so without a carrot you would find it even less fun. MGP is as much a carrot as the vanity items bought with it. A carrot on a stick is nothing more than gaining something you want or need by requiring you to put in effort to obtain it. Grind is itself not a carrot, it is the method for obtaining the carrot and in the mini cactpot the carrot is the MGP. Would you prefer it if they removed the carrot? If so would you still play the scratch cards when there is no reward for it or are you simply confusing 'carrot' with grind, wanting no grind but keeping the carrot? The reality is you cannot remove the grind for it unless they grant you 100% chance of getting exactly what you want or need on your first try in everything you do.

As I said grind is not the reward, it is not the carrot. The carrot is both the MGP as well as the vanity items bought with MGP yet 'carrot' is what you said above in your own words that they do not need. Even if they removed the MGP reward for taking part in things and the grinding of that reward to buy other things...unless you want 100% success rate on everything in GS then your still 'grinding' content and the carrot still exists if there is something your trying to obtain from doing that content. The only way to have no grind is to only require doing something 'once' to get everything you want from it with no chance of failure. Also do not mistake 'not feeling like a grind' with the fact it is a grind even if you do not feel like it is...anything you repeat multiple times in an attempt to gain something you want or need is a grind regardless of whether it feels like one to you.

Pretty much every RTS game I can think of uses grinds whether your grinding levels or grinding resources and more, so I guess every single RTS is a bad game by your logic of grind equals bad game. In fact I reckon you would be hard pressed to name a single RTS game or MMO that does not have any grind. They all use the carrot on a stick as well whether it is higher scores, improved ranks, better items, stronger units, reaching/unlocking more maps or even trying to reach the next cutscene/cinematic etc to see the next part of the story plus many other such things...if you was a good game designer you would know this. In my opinion for someone who claims to be a game designer you seem to have a lack of knowledge about game mechanics, how and where they have been implemented plus their purpose in the grand scheme of things.

I will also add one more thing and that is since you proclaim to be a game developer and are specifically trying to use that position against SE's design choices, how about you list some of the games you have worked on especially ones that can be verified you personally played a part in creating so we can have some idea about the quality of your own work and of special note would be any MMO's you developed since you seem so happy to tell SE how to make theirs from a developers stand point...you being the one who tried to use your un-verified credibility as a game designer to berate them and others on their game design choices after all rather than just stating your opinion as a customer or player.

[Brightsayge]

4-5 hours a week? That would be 8-10 hours you spend in Goldsaucer, if you did nothing else. And you earned 150k MGP? How? Explain this, please. Or do you mean 4-5 hours a day?

I might still be drunk but, all ive heard you say is waaah waaah waaah(yes I read the entire thread!). its a lotto its random, get over it. stop being jealous of your neighbor or fellow gamers who win.

as for other games, they are all a grind, you don't play a game for the first time and beat it. you have to die, and redo the level, or beat it with the best score, or w/e every game is repetitive, just cause you don't gain a level or w/e doesn't mean u don't grind it out. you actually gain a level in real life. you become a better player! you play it on harder difficulty levels.


also, ive won the 10k mgp multiple times on my main and my alt characters.



have a good day.

[Mordermi]

How often I hear things like that. You tell people, that something is too extreme and then they take the other extreme to attack the critic. No, not for free. Just more in reach for the mass of normal gamers, who do not live in this game. It's vanity. Yes. Exactly. So there is really not need for such a massive grind.

They could just bring in more prizes, maybe some other vanity stuff you only got RNG till now. Or new vanitiy stuff, like color food for your race chocobo. Or the Onions for your own chocobo. It would add another source.

I think it is all well within reach. I've earned 150k MGP already, and I play for 4-5 hours a week. That's hardly living in the game. It's only been two weeks. There will be more added to the Gold Saucer in the future.

Also.. I was not attacking anyone. I said if there was NO grind, then they would just be giving stuff away. If you say that it doesn't need to be as much of a grind as it is, then I can kind of see where you are coming from, and you did say that. However, you also said "You don't need grind at all." Which is it?