Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?

[Vidu]

@ Vidu
Read the thread. The problem is not the lottery, the problem is, that there is nothing to compensate it but a terrible grind. And no, gaming is not even near the disastrous effect of lottery in RL, there are WORLDS between.

...are you serious?! You're responding to post like THIS? Adding stuff to one of the posts you've written before so everyone will read your comment on a statment s/he hasnt even seen yet? Well, I should've known because I was reading through the thread actually and you did that before... poor attitude and style, my dear...

I've re-readed the title and your first post again and I kinda see why you dont understand the answers you're getting here - but you didnt choose your words very well, no offense. You seem to complain about how unfair it is that some people dont have to "grind" (I still dont see that anyone has to grind content that is only meant to be funny and only give vanity rewards as much as I'd like to have that mount&gear myself) - you wanted the mini-cacpot "fairer" - at least thats how I understand your title that refery exactly to the mini-cacpot - not the MGP-grind. You didnt asked for a raised amount of MGP in chocobo racing, triple triad, gates, minigames... no you asked for making luck-based games "fairer". In the way you choose title and original statment you made people response in a certain way and you had to face the terrible truth that people are fine with luck in a lottery - that doesnt mean that they're fine with MGP being a grind and maybe some of those who are against you when you say "make lotterys fair, remove RNG from mini-cacpot!" would agree with you if you'd say "raise the reward of MGP from Chocobo-Racing/Triple Traid/whatever".

...also you started that poor comparsion... are you, aside from being a game developer, who believes that people dont want to play luck-based (mini)games, also a psychiatrist that you can tell that lotterys are doing more harm to people than videogames when it comes to the point of being addicted? (I dont want to discuss this topic, certainly not here - I just cant stand the point of this poor argumentation and totally missing of the point I tried to make. I choose videogames because thats obviously a fitting topic here - could have also said that there are a lot of people who are addicted to alcohol - do you wanna remove that from rl? Also: I still dont see who making the lottery "fairer" would harm people less? If your rl-point only aims against people loosing money because of lotterys I've already explained why that cant happen in-game - also you'd miss the real problem lotterys&gambeling can do to people... which is addiction, the ruined life is more of a symptom that comes form that... and it cant happen in that form in Eorzea - unless someone decides to create more and more accounts to be able to play the minicacpot about 100 times a day - with 100 different characters ofc... very unlikely, that this happens, isnt it? Also: for someone whos ruining his life with lotterys it doesnt matter so much if he wins or looses - thats why it is ruining his life ofc - by making a luckbased game "fairer" it wouldnt be less "dangerous" for that person - except in rl ofc where he could pay his bills with that money. But, again: that doesnt affect this game. you dont have to pay bills with MGP, you can buy some cool-looking vanity-stuff with it, thats all. So, to sum it up a little: I dont even get why you raised this comparsion at all... I kinda dont know anymore why I tried to explain why it is bad except from the point that I'm getting angry about how you're twisting every word someone says in here)

[Madigari]

This thread has to be a joke. While I do feel that FFXIV lives by the motto "Progression is for the lucky", this is a -casino-. You complain about MGP being needed for chocobo raising, but you can very easily get all the MGP you need -for- chocobo raising/coverings simply by -racing chocobos-. I've won far more from TT and Chocobo racing than I ever have from the mini or jumbo cactpot, but that doesn't mean there's a problem with mini or jumbo cactpot.

The RNG aspect of the Gold Saucer is only a problem if you're looking to the lottery as your primary source of MGP income. And, like in real life, if you're relying on the lottery to get what you need/want, you're doing something wrong.

[Vidu]

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

Infact you could reduce a grind ofc - by making stuff easier to obtain, in this case: raising the MGP-reward you're getting from anything else in the gold saucer by a bit - I dont believe it would harm anyone or would people make leave the game because of "nothing to do" if MGP-rewards would be raised by 50% or so - but I also kinda believe that SE calculated the rewards carefully, might get raised in the future, prices might drop, new stuff will be added etc. etc. I would rather give it a few month than ranting about it - specially about luck-based stuff - after 2 weeks because I dont have my shiny mount yet...

Saying "it has to be a grind because this is a MMO" is a bit... brief - not everything in a MMO has to be a grind and devs could&should think of other ways to keep players busy - but still in the end some sort of grind will be necassary since they cant add new stuff every week obviously. Grinding for vanity, like you do in the gold saucer, is one of the better things to implement (at least if you're asking me...)

[Mordermi]

Infact you could reduce a grind ofc- snipped

I agree. It can be reduced, and possibly with no harm. Not everything in a MMO has to be a grind, but there has to be a grind. If we're talking about the game in general, I could think of some things that RNG or grind could be eased up on. Talking about the Gold Saucer, I think it is just fine for now. I'm sure SE is taking future updates into consideration. There will be more ways to earn MGP. We just have to take easy, and realize that we're not going to have the new outfits, mounts, minions, and cards in the first two weeks (I know you realize this. This point isn't really aimed at you.)

Also, I guess I chose my wording poorly. There doesn't have to be a grind here because it's a MMO, but because it rewards things in the MMO. If there is no grind, then the might as well send the Gambler and bunny outfits out to everyone via Moogle Mail.

[RobinRethiel]

A few things here... You said in an earlier post that you are a game designer. So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind? MMOs are RNG and grind. Heck, single-player RPGs are RNG and grind. That's just how it is. Reducing RNG and grind in a MMO makes the game less time consuming, which makes it so that everyone runs out of things to do, and leaves before the next patch. Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

As for the Gold Saucer, it has to have RNG and grind.

Strange question. RNG and grind is just there to buy time. It's there to avoid, that people play - for example - a dungeon one time, get their item and will not play it again, because there is nothing to get for them anymore.

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.
As said before, RNG can be a good thing, when it is used to bring some randomness into a game, so you don't have the exact same monsters at the same place and so on.
RNG in drop mechanic can also mean, that people are feeling lucky, because they get something they want - by luck.
On its downside, if there is no mechanic, which somehow guaranties an drop after a random amount of times, people begin to feel pranked, because no matter how hard they try, they never get what they want - by bad luck.

Good luck: fine.
Bad luck: very, very bad.

That is one of the core design rules of game design.
People like to have luck, so let them have luck, this will make them feel good and they will like the game.
People hate to have bad luck, so avoid the possibility for bad luck like hell, because it will make player feel bad and they will start to hate the game.

As written before:
If a game guarantees a win after 100 wins, but also got the possibility, that you get it earlier before, people go for that 100 wins and will feel good, when they don't need them. You got RNG, but not as core mechanic, but as an extra. -> Fine.
If you got something like Gaius, a card with a 1% drop chance, indeed people will feel lucky, who get it and even more lucky when they get it after the first try, what is indeed possible. But everyone who is doing this over and over and over again, 100, 200, 500, 1000 times, and never see it, will develop a grudge against the mechanic, the game, the developers. -> Bad.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

Grinding can be easily avoided, by providing a much wider spread source for such things and especially combining rewards with fun activities. Gold Saucer easily got this possibility, the problem is, that most of the fun activities are far too weak or pure RNG. Even the most optimal source needs an catastrophic grind, much worse than everything else seen in this - and many other - games.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

Grinding is not difficult. It's time consuming, that's all. A grind can easily be done by a bot. And that's the point. When you see as a developer, that people start to use bots, you should know, that something is not running smoothly, that the specific content is too boring (easy and repetitive). The optimal choice for a game designer is, to plan an element, people would even do without any reward. And then add an reward for the extra kick.

You don't need grind at all. Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years. So your point is invalid.

People are getting bored by grind. If they can only do a few specific things. That's why they leave. Square is doing a good job with content here. They can do an even better job, I'm sure of this and FF14 is young and there is a lot, which can and possibly will be added. No need to build in a grind. Grinding is simply just an ultra lazy game design. You stretch something, which would not last a single week to months. It's a dirty trick and while it works here and there, it stays bad game design. And I don't think, that Square needs this. I think, they are much better than that. They showed this often enough.

pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you. Take the hint, and stop accusing others of what you're very obviously guilty of.

As said, your opinion does not matter, because you got no point You are loud and team up, but this is no argument for anything. When everyone is crying for war and a single person is saying no, this one single person is still right. You are simply very egoistic, people who don't care for others, that's what you are saying in all your posts. You would lose NOTHING when Square would also look at the mass of other players. The would profit from this - and exactly that is the only point you got, that you don't want other players to profit, too. Pure egoism.

@ Vidu
Again, you refer to the title and do not care about the posts I made. So either you did not read them or you did not understand them. No matter what, your posts make no sense for me this way. When you ignore my posts, there is no point to have any conversation with you.
The point about lottery: I'm educated and informed about such things. It's actually even part of my job to know about them. "Evil" designers are indeed using psychological tricks. They are like drug dealers, you get something for free and then they milk you. There are many tricks like this you can use to trick people, making them addicted. If you don't care for such things, if you don't care for the problem, lottery is causing, it's fine. But then just admit this. - Yes, you can't get bankrupt in Eorza. Never said this. I'm writing here to Square to help them satisfying more players, not only a few grinders, who are easily to satisfy anyway. As said: just add a golden hat for 10.000.000 MGP, done. Happy grinding. Takes a few minutes, maybe a few hours, when you want to give it a special design. You have satisfied all the grinders and can leave the rest for normal and casual players, so for those, Gold Saucer was made for, listening to Square.

@ Madigari
Gold Saucer has never been a casino and if, it would be a bad one. A casino would have much more, would have poker, slot machines, roulette and many more. At max, Gold Saucer, as it is, is a lotto shop. What kind of casino shall that be, when you can only play 1 time per day and an addtional 1 time per week. The original Gold Saucer was a fun park. And the Gold Saucer in FF14 should be, too. It's on a good way, the grind and RNG is the only thing in the way.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like. There was not Lottery. There was just fun and you earned your GP this way. You could spend hours there, but not in a grind.

Also, I guess I chose my wording poorly. There doesn't have to be a grind here because it's a MMO, but because it rewards things in the MMO. If there is no grind, then the might as well send the Gambler and bunny outfits out to everyone via Moogle Mail.

How often I hear things like that. You tell people, that something is too extreme and then they take the other extreme to attack the critic. No, not for free. Just more in reach for the mass of normal gamers, who do not live in this game. It's vanity. Yes. Exactly. So there is really not need for such a massive grind.

They could just bring in more prizes, maybe some other vanity stuff you only got RNG till now. Or new vanitiy stuff, like color food for your race chocobo. Or the Onions for your own chocobo. It would add another source.

[Mordermi]

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like.

Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

1. The roulette bonus - It gives players bonus currency, which is used in some sort of grind. They are grinding currency for new gear. I don't understand how this avoids a grind.

2. Grinding - My statement about lowering the difficulty level to remove grinding in a single-player RPG was not due to difficulty of grinding. But without a grind, you would have to make it so that every enemy and boss battle is beatable at level 1, which would remove nearly all difficulty from the game.

3. Raising MGP rewards - I don't really see a problem with this, but you'd still have to repeat activities over and over again to reach your goal, which is grinding.

4. Online games - I'm not sure what you mean here. Like flash games? Games that aren't RPGs. Sure, there are a lot of games with no grind. Many old school games and flash games have no grind, but they are a completely different genre. The original Mario wasn't a grind. Neither is Cargo Bridge. But those aren't MMORPGs. Those have a beginning and an end. MMOs are supposed to go on forever. There has to be something to slow you down. You can't just beat all of the levels, and then be done. Though you say people play for years, so I don't think those are the games of which you speak. So can I assume F2P games? If so, I'm not sure where you get "thousand" from.

5. FFVII Gold Saucer - There were games, which were fun, and you earned GP from them. If you wanted to get the best prizes, then you needed to play these games over and over and over and over. How is that any different than the Gold Saucer in FFXIV, and how is that not a grind?

[Mordermi]

How often I hear things like that. You tell people, that something is too extreme and then they take the other extreme to attack the critic. No, not for free. Just more in reach for the mass of normal gamers, who do not live in this game. It's vanity. Yes. Exactly. So there is really not need for such a massive grind.

They could just bring in more prizes, maybe some other vanity stuff you only got RNG till now. Or new vanitiy stuff, like color food for your race chocobo. Or the Onions for your own chocobo. It would add another source.

I think it is all well within reach. I've earned 150k MGP already, and I play for 4-5 hours a week. That's hardly living in the game. It's only been two weeks. There will be more added to the Gold Saucer in the future.

Also.. I was not attacking anyone. I said if there was NO grind, then they would just be giving stuff away. If you say that it doesn't need to be as much of a grind as it is, then I can kind of see where you are coming from, and you did say that. However, you also said "You don't need grind at all." Which is it?

[RobinRethiel]

Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

It's grinding, when you have to do the same dungeons 200 times.
If you can chose from a variety of dungeons, it's less till no grindy.
If you even got more, other sources (equally effective), it's no grind anymore at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindin...ideo_gaming%29

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need a carrot.

I think it is all well within reach. I've earned 150k MGP already, and I play for 4-5 hours a week. That's hardly living in the game. It's only been two weeks. There will be more added to the Gold Saucer in the future.

4-5 hours a week? That would be 8-10 hours you spend in Goldsaucer, if you did nothing else. And you earned 150k MGP? How? Explain this, please. Or do you mean 4-5 hours a day?

[Mordermi]

It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need carrot.

Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

Edit: I've also purchased a lot of MGP with gil.. Scratch that. It doesn't count toward the earned MGP achievement.

[RobinRethiel]

Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

Lucky you @ 4 times 10k. That alone is worth over 4 hours of TT grind. I know dozens of players, who didn't win it a single time.