Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?

[RobinRethiel]

Yet you're the only one expressing that kind of hate or selfishness. You seem to think that if you personally don't always win, not just a great return, but the very highest possible return anyone can ever get, then the whole game has been devastated. That's ridiculous.

If you don't like the lotteries, then don't play them. It's one of several optional features of a totally optional area that's completely unrelated to the main game. It doesn't even have any rewards beyond a few cosmetics. The only reason anyone is there playing Gold Saucer games or trying to earn MGP is if they enjoy it. You clearly don't, so why would you even care who wins some points you don't want? Is it really, as it seems, just because SE had the effrontery to add something to the game that doesn't pertain to you specifically? There are plenty of other people who like games of chance.

If you don't read a thread, don't answer to it, okay? Especially not in such a hateful way. You obviously don't want to discuss it, so why are you here? To flame me? Or just out of egoism, because, as all those who argue like you say: It's about, that THEY got special stuff others won't get. PURE egoism. You want Gold Saucer to be the "elitits grinder" place.

What about doing Coil? T13? Or not good enough for this? Or do the fishing achievement. There you got your terrible RNG grind. This game already served you very well. Gold Sauce was presented as a place for all players. But it's not. It's RNG again, it's grind again. And many, many people hate it. They just don't post here, because they lost their "faith" in Square and don't want to get flamed by people like you. They just leave. First the Gold Saucer and - from their speaking - the game, when Square continues this. Because they can spend those monthly fees also on a real lottery ticket, if they want something like that. I try my best to keep them, I'm telling them, that Square may change this, that they wrote here and there, that they want to reduce the RNG and grind. And then another thing goes online, this time Gold Saucer and again: RNG and grind.

That's the reality. Not your private universe, where everything is fine - for you.

Yeah, I'm sure players are leaving because of the mini-cactpot.

Not because of mini-cactpot. because it is the only real source for MGP beside terrible grinding. The great mass beyond those few with sheer luck hate both, because it's - and there is no discussion about it - dumb. Grind is per definition repetitive and dumb and RNG does not need anything else than luck - so it's dumb.

And in actual fact, this topic was started by you, about "you, you, you". You were pretty upset that some people won the 10k reward a few times...

I were not and I am not. I'm actually making money as a game designer and when I see bad mechanics, which hurt a player base, I see a problem. Sure, I could say, like you: Who cares? If Squares ruining or hurting their game, that is not my problem. Let them lose players to other games, that will teach them. Maybe.

Or I care about this game, care about the players, care about the developers, about others, something you are apparently not able to. Those few Antis here - and you are few, even when you reach a dozen, you are far below 0,01% of the player base, don't bring any constructive points. It's just anti. No, everything is fine, because I, I, I got no problem with it.

But beside personal emotions, sheer math is telling, that this is not true.

You care only about yourself, not this thread, not other players, not the game or Square, who developed it. You would lose NOTHING if Square would make it less of RNG and a grind. And still the aggression in this thread about simply more fun for all players is catastrophic. As if someone would threaten you to steal your cookies...

@ Vidu
Read the thread. The problem is not the lottery, the problem is, that there is nothing to compensate it but a terrible grind. And no, gaming is not even near the disastrous effect of lottery in RL, there are WORLDS between.

Making this a general "What is bad and unfair in this game"-thread is not excatly a clever move. People will insist to tell you why a lottery which includes luck is fine - if you want to discuss the rest you may go and open up another thread to rant about all that RNG?

Ask the people who came with the "argument", that MMO MUST have grind and RNG. That was my answer to this.

As said: Read, then write.

Please - try not to see it, try to have fun with the Gold Saucer as a funpark and not as an elitist shop...

That's why I opened this thread. At the moment it is no fun park. People play it for a while, because it is new. Then they see the horrible grind and RNG mechanic and yes, of course they will probably continue do to the daily cactpot and weekly lottery, but you don't need the Gold Saucer for this, this you could do by mogry mail...

And for you again: This is not about me, it's about the system in a whole and how many players, who don't dare to write here because of all the aggression and such, got problems with it and are annoyed. People who want to play a game, not grind like working in a factory.

[Vidu]

What about doing Coil? T13? Or not good enough for this? Or do the fishing achievement. There you got your terrible RNG grind. This game already served you very well. Gold Sauce was presented as a place for all players. But it's not. It's RNG again, it's grind again. And many, many people hate it. They just don't post here, because they lost their "faith" in Square and don't want to get flamed by people like you. They just leave. First the Gold Saucer and - from their speaking - the game, when Square continues this. Because they can spend those monthly fees also on a real lottery ticket, if they want something like that.

Sorry for the doppel-post but after seeing this... what are you trying to do here? Turning a thread where people tried to explain to you why luck in a lottery is totally fine into some sort of your own general rant about the game? I'm pretty sure there are points in which this game can improve (even though I'm more or less fine with it as it is for the moment) - but you're going totally offtopic here. You wanted to discuss the fairness of luck in a lottery and people told you that theres nothing to discuss because lotterys are meant to be about luck and even though everyone of us lost it more often than getting the first prize we're okay with it because we know that this is how a lottery works - it would take the fun out of it (at least for me) if I'd just go to the gold saucer everyday to get my 10k for 100...
Making this a general "What is bad and unfair in this game"-thread is not excatly a clever move. People will insist to tell you why a lottery which includes luck is fine - if you want to discuss the rest you may go and open up another thread to rant about all that RNG?

Also: While I can understand that RNG bothers people a lot when it comes to real progression (coil loot, WoD loot, Zodiakgrind) I dont really see the problem with the gold saucer - its all about vanity. You dont have to make it a grind. You can play around a bit, just enjoy it. Cant you play a game just for fun and not only for the reward? Are you only aiming for the carrot? Please - try not to see it, try to have fun with the Gold Saucer as a funpark and not as an elitist shop...

[Mordermi]

I try my best to keep them, I'm telling them, that Square may change this, that they wrote here and there, that they want to reduce the RNG and grind. And then another thing goes online, this time Gold Saucer and again: RNG and grind.

A few things here... You said in an earlier post that you are a game designer. So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind? MMOs are RNG and grind. Heck, single-player RPGs are RNG and grind. That's just how it is. Reducing RNG and grind in a MMO makes the game less time consuming, which makes it so that everyone runs out of things to do, and leaves before the next patch. Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

As for the Gold Saucer, it has to have RNG and grind. It has to have RNG due to the fact that there is a lottery. It has to have a grind because this is a MMO. If there is no RNG or grind, that is called a hand-out. If your concern is the that you are limited to only a couple of options for grinding, then please just wait until they expand the Gold Saucer. It was just released, and they plan on adding a lot to it in the future.

EDIT: I'd like to add, since I know it will be brought up. Yes, you feel that the Gold Saucer is a "Fun Park", and so maybe it shouldn't be part of the MMO grind. Here's the thing: It was designed after the Gold Saucer from FFVII, which you know, and the FFVII Gold Saucer was a grind, mixed with some RNG. If you really think about it, this Gold Saucer is a lot like the original. The original was designed with grind and RNG, so this one was as well.

[Vidu]

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

Infact you could reduce a grind ofc - by making stuff easier to obtain, in this case: raising the MGP-reward you're getting from anything else in the gold saucer by a bit - I dont believe it would harm anyone or would people make leave the game because of "nothing to do" if MGP-rewards would be raised by 50% or so - but I also kinda believe that SE calculated the rewards carefully, might get raised in the future, prices might drop, new stuff will be added etc. etc. I would rather give it a few month than ranting about it - specially about luck-based stuff - after 2 weeks because I dont have my shiny mount yet...

Saying "it has to be a grind because this is a MMO" is a bit... brief - not everything in a MMO has to be a grind and devs could&should think of other ways to keep players busy - but still in the end some sort of grind will be necassary since they cant add new stuff every week obviously. Grinding for vanity, like you do in the gold saucer, is one of the better things to implement (at least if you're asking me...)

[Mordermi]

Infact you could reduce a grind ofc- snipped

I agree. It can be reduced, and possibly with no harm. Not everything in a MMO has to be a grind, but there has to be a grind. If we're talking about the game in general, I could think of some things that RNG or grind could be eased up on. Talking about the Gold Saucer, I think it is just fine for now. I'm sure SE is taking future updates into consideration. There will be more ways to earn MGP. We just have to take easy, and realize that we're not going to have the new outfits, mounts, minions, and cards in the first two weeks (I know you realize this. This point isn't really aimed at you.)

Also, I guess I chose my wording poorly. There doesn't have to be a grind here because it's a MMO, but because it rewards things in the MMO. If there is no grind, then the might as well send the Gambler and bunny outfits out to everyone via Moogle Mail.

[RobinRethiel]

A few things here... You said in an earlier post that you are a game designer. So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind? MMOs are RNG and grind. Heck, single-player RPGs are RNG and grind. That's just how it is. Reducing RNG and grind in a MMO makes the game less time consuming, which makes it so that everyone runs out of things to do, and leaves before the next patch. Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

As for the Gold Saucer, it has to have RNG and grind.

Strange question. RNG and grind is just there to buy time. It's there to avoid, that people play - for example - a dungeon one time, get their item and will not play it again, because there is nothing to get for them anymore.

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.
As said before, RNG can be a good thing, when it is used to bring some randomness into a game, so you don't have the exact same monsters at the same place and so on.
RNG in drop mechanic can also mean, that people are feeling lucky, because they get something they want - by luck.
On its downside, if there is no mechanic, which somehow guaranties an drop after a random amount of times, people begin to feel pranked, because no matter how hard they try, they never get what they want - by bad luck.

Good luck: fine.
Bad luck: very, very bad.

That is one of the core design rules of game design.
People like to have luck, so let them have luck, this will make them feel good and they will like the game.
People hate to have bad luck, so avoid the possibility for bad luck like hell, because it will make player feel bad and they will start to hate the game.

As written before:
If a game guarantees a win after 100 wins, but also got the possibility, that you get it earlier before, people go for that 100 wins and will feel good, when they don't need them. You got RNG, but not as core mechanic, but as an extra. -> Fine.
If you got something like Gaius, a card with a 1% drop chance, indeed people will feel lucky, who get it and even more lucky when they get it after the first try, what is indeed possible. But everyone who is doing this over and over and over again, 100, 200, 500, 1000 times, and never see it, will develop a grudge against the mechanic, the game, the developers. -> Bad.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

Grinding can be easily avoided, by providing a much wider spread source for such things and especially combining rewards with fun activities. Gold Saucer easily got this possibility, the problem is, that most of the fun activities are far too weak or pure RNG. Even the most optimal source needs an catastrophic grind, much worse than everything else seen in this - and many other - games.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

Grinding is not difficult. It's time consuming, that's all. A grind can easily be done by a bot. And that's the point. When you see as a developer, that people start to use bots, you should know, that something is not running smoothly, that the specific content is too boring (easy and repetitive). The optimal choice for a game designer is, to plan an element, people would even do without any reward. And then add an reward for the extra kick.

You don't need grind at all. Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years. So your point is invalid.

People are getting bored by grind. If they can only do a few specific things. That's why they leave. Square is doing a good job with content here. They can do an even better job, I'm sure of this and FF14 is young and there is a lot, which can and possibly will be added. No need to build in a grind. Grinding is simply just an ultra lazy game design. You stretch something, which would not last a single week to months. It's a dirty trick and while it works here and there, it stays bad game design. And I don't think, that Square needs this. I think, they are much better than that. They showed this often enough.

pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you. Take the hint, and stop accusing others of what you're very obviously guilty of.

As said, your opinion does not matter, because you got no point You are loud and team up, but this is no argument for anything. When everyone is crying for war and a single person is saying no, this one single person is still right. You are simply very egoistic, people who don't care for others, that's what you are saying in all your posts. You would lose NOTHING when Square would also look at the mass of other players. The would profit from this - and exactly that is the only point you got, that you don't want other players to profit, too. Pure egoism.

@ Vidu
Again, you refer to the title and do not care about the posts I made. So either you did not read them or you did not understand them. No matter what, your posts make no sense for me this way. When you ignore my posts, there is no point to have any conversation with you.
The point about lottery: I'm educated and informed about such things. It's actually even part of my job to know about them. "Evil" designers are indeed using psychological tricks. They are like drug dealers, you get something for free and then they milk you. There are many tricks like this you can use to trick people, making them addicted. If you don't care for such things, if you don't care for the problem, lottery is causing, it's fine. But then just admit this. - Yes, you can't get bankrupt in Eorza. Never said this. I'm writing here to Square to help them satisfying more players, not only a few grinders, who are easily to satisfy anyway. As said: just add a golden hat for 10.000.000 MGP, done. Happy grinding. Takes a few minutes, maybe a few hours, when you want to give it a special design. You have satisfied all the grinders and can leave the rest for normal and casual players, so for those, Gold Saucer was made for, listening to Square.

@ Madigari
Gold Saucer has never been a casino and if, it would be a bad one. A casino would have much more, would have poker, slot machines, roulette and many more. At max, Gold Saucer, as it is, is a lotto shop. What kind of casino shall that be, when you can only play 1 time per day and an addtional 1 time per week. The original Gold Saucer was a fun park. And the Gold Saucer in FF14 should be, too. It's on a good way, the grind and RNG is the only thing in the way.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like. There was not Lottery. There was just fun and you earned your GP this way. You could spend hours there, but not in a grind.

Also, I guess I chose my wording poorly. There doesn't have to be a grind here because it's a MMO, but because it rewards things in the MMO. If there is no grind, then the might as well send the Gambler and bunny outfits out to everyone via Moogle Mail.

How often I hear things like that. You tell people, that something is too extreme and then they take the other extreme to attack the critic. No, not for free. Just more in reach for the mass of normal gamers, who do not live in this game. It's vanity. Yes. Exactly. So there is really not need for such a massive grind.

They could just bring in more prizes, maybe some other vanity stuff you only got RNG till now. Or new vanitiy stuff, like color food for your race chocobo. Or the Onions for your own chocobo. It would add another source.

[Mordermi]

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like.

Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

1. The roulette bonus - It gives players bonus currency, which is used in some sort of grind. They are grinding currency for new gear. I don't understand how this avoids a grind.

2. Grinding - My statement about lowering the difficulty level to remove grinding in a single-player RPG was not due to difficulty of grinding. But without a grind, you would have to make it so that every enemy and boss battle is beatable at level 1, which would remove nearly all difficulty from the game.

3. Raising MGP rewards - I don't really see a problem with this, but you'd still have to repeat activities over and over again to reach your goal, which is grinding.

4. Online games - I'm not sure what you mean here. Like flash games? Games that aren't RPGs. Sure, there are a lot of games with no grind. Many old school games and flash games have no grind, but they are a completely different genre. The original Mario wasn't a grind. Neither is Cargo Bridge. But those aren't MMORPGs. Those have a beginning and an end. MMOs are supposed to go on forever. There has to be something to slow you down. You can't just beat all of the levels, and then be done. Though you say people play for years, so I don't think those are the games of which you speak. So can I assume F2P games? If so, I'm not sure where you get "thousand" from.

5. FFVII Gold Saucer - There were games, which were fun, and you earned GP from them. If you wanted to get the best prizes, then you needed to play these games over and over and over and over. How is that any different than the Gold Saucer in FFXIV, and how is that not a grind?

[RobinRethiel]

Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

It's grinding, when you have to do the same dungeons 200 times.
If you can chose from a variety of dungeons, it's less till no grindy.
If you even got more, other sources (equally effective), it's no grind anymore at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindin...ideo_gaming%29

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need a carrot.

I think it is all well within reach. I've earned 150k MGP already, and I play for 4-5 hours a week. That's hardly living in the game. It's only been two weeks. There will be more added to the Gold Saucer in the future.

4-5 hours a week? That would be 8-10 hours you spend in Goldsaucer, if you did nothing else. And you earned 150k MGP? How? Explain this, please. Or do you mean 4-5 hours a day?

[Mordermi]

It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need carrot.

Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

Edit: I've also purchased a lot of MGP with gil.. Scratch that. It doesn't count toward the earned MGP achievement.

[RobinRethiel]

Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

Lucky you @ 4 times 10k. That alone is worth over 4 hours of TT grind. I know dozens of players, who didn't win it a single time.