Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?

[Vidu]

mmh... after reading through the last post of the OP here... I'm asking myself: If SE would simply remove rewards from the gold saucer - would the OP be pleased? S/he said that there are a lot of games which people play over and over again - without rewards, because they are fun in itself... what I was trying to say the whole time: A lot of gold saucers activities are fun in itself (at least for me) including the lotteries (and I got the impression that a lot of people agree on that). So the only thing that sours this fun is the fact that there are some people who want to make a grind out of everything? That the shortcut aka lotterys isnt available at any time? I do agree that a grind like the zodiak-dungeon-drop-grind where you've got a fixed chance to get your item isnt excatly great because you cant work towards a goal by repeating it (beside that you're working towards your zodiac ofc, but it doesnt increase the droprate or anything) - with most of the stuff you're doing in the gold saucer you are working towards those rewards - if you're only working for the carrot - you can see your MGP increase by more or less every action (granted, you lose a few when losing a TT-match against an NPC or from the lotterys but its not that much - and no risk no fun!).

I'm fairly confused by now - because everything seems to be the problem now: luck-based games (because some ppl are unlucky), MGP-grind (because some ppl seem to believe that they need this gold saucer stuff within a week after release), rewards (because they make ppl grind and because there are games which are fun without rewards at all)...
Whats the problem now? Reading your posts, OP, I kinda wish for you that there wouldnt be a reward at all - because then you could enjoy all those games just as fun in themselves... maybe...

I am doing so. I'm playing triple triad if I feel like playing triple triad. I'm visting my racing chocobo if I've got nothing else to do. I'm doing the mini-cacpot everyday but might skip one if I'd had bad luck a few times. But while doing all of this I'm actually having fun. I decided I wont look at the MGP I'm counting - one day I'll have enough to buy the stuff I want. I'm not focused on the carrot but on the game itself - and my best advice to everyone would be: Do the same. Be more happy and less bitter...

oh and OP: dont pretend you're worried about ppls health when you actually told me that video games arent something that ruins ppls life, yeah?

[RobinRethiel]

mmh... after reading through the last post of the OP here... I'm asking myself: If SE would simply remove rewards from the gold saucer - would the OP be pleased??

You got some serious problems with understanding somehow, no? Or do you do this on purpose, perverting my words?

RobinRethiel, as mentioned, you don't speak for nearly as many people as you even think you do. I was inerested in that I learned that the highest number is not always the best. I thought the game had said the highest was the best . . . or at least that was my assumption playing he game. So far, my highest payout was 300ish. This thread has given me something to think about when I play.

From the statistic, I speak for a few hundert thousands. And you? Ah, you speak for no one, since nothing in this thread would take anything away from you.

All the posts of the contra people hera are all about defending a position, which simply means, that OTHERS should not have luck and fun, too. It's aggression on a very high level. You would lose nothing, but others could gain something and you HATE this. That's why you are posting here.

While I agree that they could raise the amount of MGP you earn from TT / ChocoRaising, I disagree about the unfairness of the lottery. The lottery isnt suposed to be your main source of MGP income. It's suposed to be a nice bonus that you get once in a while. Most of the time you get your MGP back and then some, and on rare occasions you'll win a nice profit. It works just like its suposed to work. A nice and welcoming bonus that will happen sooner or later if you keep playing.

Yes, and that's the point. it should be a bonus, not the main source, but at the moment, for many people, it is, while others have to grind out of bad luck. That's the crux.

So, by your own definition, the Gold Saucer has no grind. Certainly the game never forces you to do anything because you have to reach some goal. There is no goal except to have fun with the games.

Pointless argument, because when you look at this like that, there is no goal in any game. You are trying to pervert the system to argue.

So in other words, the "optimal choice" is to do just exactly what they did here. They gave us the games people have been asking for because people want to play them just for the fun of it, and then they added some trivial points to the games for that extra little kick. (At the same time they were careful to ensure you can't get anything for those points except some cosmetics, so they never take over as the primary goal. The primary goal of all the Gold Saucer events will remain the fun of playing them.)

No, you are ignoring the salient point. It's a cheap trick, but does not work, sorry.

You're equating people not agreeing with you with not understanding you. Those are quite different things.

Oh, those would be a different thing, but your imputation is simply wrong. Another cheap trick. Forget such things, I know them. I'm arguing with people much more clever than you most of my time.

No, you don't speak for them either. Casual normal gamers are fine with having some lighthearted side games alongside their progression content in the main part of the game. It's only those who are completely OCD about having to instantly get every single thing there is to get who would even care about the stuff you're ranting about. That attitude doesn't lead to casual gaming.

So you spoke to them? So it's your job to speak with them? To understand them? To care for them? No, you don't. And I know this from the lines you wrote. What you are defending here is only hurting normal and casual players and what they would get, if Square changes the system a bit, would help them to have more fun. Again, you try to use tricks to defend a very egoistic point of view.

Statistics? And this coming from someone who said earlier in this thread that the Law of Large Numbers doesn't work in reality.

It's not my problem, when you are unable to understand the difference between both.

This is intresting, but lets break this down. Fun to people is subjective. What they deem as fun, and what you or other deem as fun are 2 different things. What your failing to grasp is that, your not having fun, by losing. But we can't all be winners. People have to lose.

No. Why? Why do people have to lose? Look at chocobo racing. Sure, you get a bit more XP when you win, but you get XP for every place. So there is no losing. Sure fun is subjective. One of those subjective ways of having fun is brainless grinding. Very, very few people like something like that, still, that is pretty much all what you few guys here are defending. Your personal way of having fun. What I defend is a wider area of fun, so people can CHOSE. And you hate this. Only YOUR fun is allowed. That's sick.

An MMORPG is by desing a grind.

This is a lie or you simple don't know what you are talking about.

But isnt it better that bonus is sigfnificant instead of just a small added bonus? And if you keep playing you will get it. Some might get it more often, but its just a nice bonus. If you dont win you shrug it of, and if you do hit that 10k you'll feel good.

I don't care for that bonus. It's bad, that you pretty much need it, if you don't want to grind your brain out. And no, there is not in the slightest any guarantee, that you get it. And even if, on the long turn, if someone get's it a few times a year, and others 100 times a year, the average of all those hundredthousands who almost never get it, will pretty much negate this bonus. Sure, those few lucky guys with luck will love Square and never go again (maybe). But on the other side you got those hundredthousands who see this and feel kicked in the teeth. From a game designer point of view, this is catastrophic. Even if those people will not leave, it's a pointer in that direction. And as a game developer you want to avoid such pointers like nothing else.

You may not understand this. Don't know. I'm doing this for years, you possibly never. No prob.

I've grinded Gaius enough that I've had way more than 99 of eatch of his two common cards. But thats cause I want that card NOW, even tho it probably will be faster to get in the future. RNG & grind; its the nature of the beast.

Sure. Me, too, kind of, mainly to get some MGP for chocobo racing. But neither me nor you or those few others here are the measure of all things. I'm writing here, because I see the system and what it does to people, what problems normal gamer got with it. If it would be just for me, I would not care about it. I want to help all those players, who got massive problems with it. And I want to help Square to help them, because when all these people are happy, they will stay and they will tell others, how great this game and Square is. Not because they are hardcore gamers or fanboys/girls, but because it's a fun game "everyone" can be happy with. You will never see such people talking to their friends, how great the grind of game is.

[VenuzKh]

Yes, and that's the point. it should be a bonus, not the main source, but at the moment, for many people, it is, while others have to grind out of bad luck. That's the crux.

But isnt it better that bonus is sigfnificant instead of just a small added bonus? And if you keep playing you will get it. Some might get it more often, but its just a nice bonus. If you dont win you shrug it of, and if you do hit that 10k you'll feel good.

[CYoung187]

Arrogant rambling...

Actually you speak for 1 person, yourself. Quit being an arrogant troll trying to tell everyone that something is a problem for the masses when you seem to be the only one who has a problem with it. Nobody here is trying to prevent anyone else from enjoying the game, get over yourself. Oh someone disagrees with you, they must not understand you or just be an elitist jerk. Great logic there.

[RobinRethiel]

Actually you speak for 1 person, yourself. Quit being an arrogant troll trying to tell everyone that something is a problem for the masses when you seem to be the only one who has a problem with it. Nobody here is trying to prevent anyone else from enjoying the game, get over yourself. Oh someone disagrees with you, they must not understand you or just be an elitist jerk. Great logic there.

You are an "elitist jerk" as yo call it, because you are arguing like one. That's not my fault, you behave like that, I'm not forcing you to do this. When you look at this forum, it's pretty much dead. There are not many threads and posts in comparison to the mass of people who play it. And that many people like you are here, who shower anyone who wants to make this game better for casual and normal gamers with hate, may, on the long term, become a problem for Square.

It's not a good thing, when people avoid an official forum, because they think it is toxic...

Name me one mmorpg that isnt a grind. Everyting in mmorpgs is a grind. It just depends on how long.

It's still not an inherent part of a MMORPG, no matter how often it occurs. Grinding is bad and easy game design. That's why many bad companies are using it.
Slavery has been a part of human societies over thousands of years. Still, slavery is no inherent part of a society. It's just very lucrative, so it occurred very oftern.

[DarkmoonVael]

It's still not an inherent part of a MMORPG, no matter how often it occurs. Grinding is bad and easy game design. That's why many bad companies are using it.
Slavery has been a part of human societies over thousands of years. Still, slavery is no inherent part of a society. It's just very lucrative, so it occurred very oftern.

Please go read the discourse Immanuel Kant has on this in the Moral Law, then go and read Rousseau's Social Contact on the theorising of the surrendering of personal liberties. Then after all this please come back to the forums with a little insight and humility on why this analogy was very very very poorly chosen. I am actually shocked that someone would actually compare MMO grinding to slavery.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

No. Why? Why do people have to lose? Look at chocobo racing. Sure, you get a bit more XP when you win, but you get XP for every place. So there is no losing. Sure fun is subjective. One of those subjective ways of having fun is brainless grinding. Very, very few people like something like that, still, that is pretty much all what you few guys here are defending. Your personal way of having fun. What I defend is a wider area of fun, so people can CHOSE. And you hate this. Only YOUR fun is allowed. That's sick.

So lets compare your mini-lottery to chocobo racing. Despite not winning the 10k, you still win SOMETHING. So technically your not losing either, your just not winning the full amount. I don't defend the grind, I deal with it because I want to be the best. There are other reasons to do things than fun. I'm also not forcing you to my way of fun, because you know what, if your not having fun, then you need to just leave, and the door is over there. No one forces you to play, but I'd assume you enjoy the rest of the game, and you've made a lot of friends, so why are you letting this thing bother you so much? Either way, you have cheesburgers in your ears, done trying to explain anything to you, and I suggest others just leave this thread alone, and let her rant in peace.

[Vidu]

You got some serious problems with understanding somehow, no? Or do you do this on purpose, perverting my words?

Nope, the only one turning words around like he wants to is you I'm afraid. But yes, I'm afraid I totally fail to understand and follow your thoughts now. Let me try to sum up what I got, okay?

1) Minicacpot is unfair because you can (but cant everytime) win a decent amount of MGP - you were told several times that people are fine with a lottery being luck based. Cant see why you dont understand that here are actually people not aggreing with you and that for a good reason since this is totally "working as intended"

2) Grinds are a bad thing - granted, they can be a bad thing. You said yourself there are as soon as you have to do boring content over and over again but most people seem to consider Gold Saucer content as fun - the ones who posted here, people I know, everyone I see standing around in the Gold Saucer for hours. If people wouldnt consider it fun it would be pretty much dead, wouldnt it? Concepts of fun may differ and I accept that "fun" doesnt mean the same thing for me as it does for you - could you please accept that too and stop pretending like everyone who doesnt agree with you about this subject is a idiot, grinder or elitst player who you dont have to care about? Could you also explain what "fun" means to you that you dont find it in the Gold Saucer? I repeat: Triple Triad itself is fun for me, Chocobo Racing is, the lotterys are (at there current state!) - dont enjoy GATEs and minigames that much but I dont have to care about them, right? I've got the impression the only thing that you consider fun is getting those rewards and not playing any content. (thats why I asked you earlier if those games would mean any fun for you if it wasnt about the rewards - sadly you didnt answerd that but instead claimed that I'm not clever enough to understand you...)

3) MGP are to much of a grind - well, they might are - you're kind of right when you're saying that the only "good" source for MGP is the lottery. But what a lot of people were trying to explain to you is that you dont have to grind this. You dont need fenrir or the gamblers outfit for anything but for yourself - and people who decided that they need it that badly are kinda happy to have a goal they can aim for. Oh but, wait, those are stupi elitst who only want to feel special, aye? Everyone can decided for themself if they want to make gold saucer another grind - and I feel pitty for the people who are doing that...

People keep telling you that they're having fun with all this stuff in the gold saucer - and your answer is: "Well, no, you dont have fun in there you're only saying so because you're elitst/fanboys/being brainwashed by SE". You're not being contructive or "clever" as you claim. You keep jumping from on topic onto another as soon as you realise that you lost ground. You claim to speak for the majority while the majority actually speaks against you - casual players arent looking/writing at the forum? mmh... what are you then...?
You need to change your attitude towards this game when something that is considered to be pure fun in itself bothers you so much that you fail to see that other people are actually just having fun with casual playing of triple triad... the only thing you're looking is "I didnt got lucky today because I didnt got the first prize, fix that!" - and if thats the only thing that you consider fun, I'm sorry for you. If you wanna win everytime go and do something else in this beautiful game - but leave the one thing where you can lose because it is meant to be like that alone...

And I would be really curious what you consider "fun" and why the gold saucer in itself doesnt mean any fun to you (and I'm sorry if you already answered that anywhere but I admit I lost a bit of track since you keep editing your posts everytime you want to...)

[Niwashi]

So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind?

It's particularly weird to complain about both of them. The issue is generally about balancing the two. They could reduce RNG by replacing it with more grind, or to some extent the other way around, but removing both leaves no game left, or at least no way of providing rewards within the game.

The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

So, by your own definition, the Gold Saucer has no grind. Certainly the game never forces you to do anything because you have to reach some goal. There is no goal except to have fun with the games.

The optimal choice for a game designer is, to plan an element, people would even do without any reward. And then add an reward for the extra kick.

So in other words, the "optimal choice" is to do just exactly what they did here. They gave us the games people have been asking for because people want to play them just for the fun of it, and then they added some trivial points to the games for that extra little kick. (At the same time they were careful to ensure you can't get anything for those points except some cosmetics, so they never take over as the primary goal. The primary goal of all the Gold Saucer events will remain the fun of playing them.)

So either you did not read them or you did not understand them.

You're equating people not agreeing with you with not understanding you. Those are quite different things.

I speak not for everyone, just for the mass of casual and normal gamers. And they are the majority.

No, you don't speak for them either. Casual normal gamers are fine with having some lighthearted side games alongside their progression content in the main part of the game. It's only those who are completely OCD about having to instantly get every single thing there is to get who would even care about the stuff you're ranting about. That attitude doesn't lead to casual gaming.

You people know nothing about game development and the statistics of MMO's. But you think you do. That's the main problem in your argumentation (if there is any).

Statistics? And this coming from someone who said earlier in this thread that the Law of Large Numbers doesn't work in reality.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

A lot of very accurate notes.

Liked, and wanted to say thanks for the great post.

RobinRethiel, as mentioned, you don't speak for nearly as many people as you even think you do. I was inerested in that I learned that the highest number is not always the best. I thought the game had said the highest was the best . . . or at least that was my assumption playing he game. So far, my highest payout was 300ish. This thread has given me something to think about when I play.

I don't think I'll be using the Solver, as I'm a decent mathematician (not professionaly or anything) and I'd find it more rewarding to win on my own merit but . . . that's what it is. I'm going to the Gold Saucer to play games.

No, you will not always get 987 in a single row. and omg I just realised the largest payout was 123. I've had that in a row and intentionally didn't click it -_- D'oh.

Anyway, it's just a game. Either have fun and play, or don't. No, it's not fair. nothing in life is fair.