It's time to reevaluate the idea of adding a PLEX/Chronoscroll-like system to FFXIV

[Duuude007]

Move along now,

The burden of proof is on the people trying to sell this to us.

Ball's in your court, friend.

[Tiggy]

This argument makes very little sense in the competitive environment. Considering groups have downed things like T13 in 110 soldiery gear, it's proven already that unless your going for World Firsts, which I'm very sure most of the posters in this thread are not and didn't accomplish such, this doesn't affect you via Pay 2 Win.

My group just downed T13 for the first time 2 weeks ago. I can assure you we aren't so good to do it in 110 gear or even 120 gear. Most of us are 130 and we beat it with 2 seconds until enrage. There is no way we'd beat it with 110 gear and I guarantee you most groups are the same way. So please try to remember that just because .0001% of the players are capable of doing it in 110 is NOT in any way shape or form proof that ANYONE can do it in 110 gear and therefore your entire assertion is completely flawed at it's core. You don't balance MMOs around it's most extreme minority of highest skilled players. That should be obvious.

[Havenchild]

My group just downed T13 for the first time 2 weeks ago. I can assure you we aren't so good to do it in 110 gear or even 120 gear. Most of us are 130 and we beat it with 2 seconds until enrage. There is no way we'd beat it with 110 gear and I guarantee you most groups are the same way. So please try to remember that just because .0001% of the players are capable of doing it in 110 is NOT in any way shape or form proof that ANYONE can do it in 110 gear and therefore your entire assertion is completely flawed at it's core. You don't balance MMOs around it's most extreme minority of highest skilled players. That should be obvious.

Entirely why you shouldn't be complaining about it. Those same people who are capable of buying this gear, doesn't necessarily mean they can down it. You had better gear then crafted and just coming off your statement, you barely beat it at 130. Hence why, even if you had crafted gear to begin with, you wouldn't have made it anyway. Again how does this affect you, when like you say, aren't in this low percentage of top tier players?

If you couldn't bring out the best in the gear to accomplish these feats, then you are not affected by others doing so unless of course you were aiming for world firsts, but if you were doing as such, then you would already have this gear.

The burden of proof is on the people trying to sell this to us.

Ball's in your court, friend.

The burden of proof is on the wall actually. An alternative way of purchasing a subscription.

The top argument against this, is P2W, when in fact the only thing you can currently P2W is getting crafted gear, or buying coil runs, unless you would mean winning more minions from MB.

The better argument would be against inflation but that's not something that would enter into the mix (which people seem to be thinking) this late in the game as it is already in the game.

Inflation would result from direct purchases of gil from RMT tell bots, which I already stated would need to be regulated much more harshly for something like this to work. Those who already buy gil, would still buy it, just now for this new purpose which btw is more then likely a very stupid idea, as RMT pricing would more likely result in more money paid to actually buy this Plex-style item on the market vs just paying a subscription for 12.99

At current on my server, RMT is shouting 1m for 3USD. My question to you would be do you honestly feel players would sell this item for under 4.25m?

The rest of the arguments here? Pretty baseless and hold little weight to what's already currently happening / happened in game.

[AlexionSkylark]

The issue here is this "sense of entitlement" people have.

The thing is... you may very well have TWO avenues to get gil in the game
1-) you play till your eyes bleed and you get it.
2-) you buy it.

Why should any of those 2 be invalid? why TIME SPENT > MONEY? Why not give people a choice, and each one just play accordingly to what you want and stop worrying about how OTHER PEOPLE got their rewards? I mean, why does it bother you so much how OTHER people play their game? does it affect you? no, it doesnt.

OOOHHH yeah, but it does. Now you're not the special snowflake you were cuz you were part of the 0.0000000001% of people who had this or that, and now there are more people to share the podium with.

Selfish and elitist behaviour, at its best.

[CrystalRainbow]

It's not really pay to win.

It's Play to Play for the people that play sooooo much.
And for most people nothing changes.
for a few it will become way to win.


But we have this system inplace. with the wedding items. Wedding items now go for 1.4m for $20 or 2.6m gil for $40 on balmung.

[Fyce]

This thread: People still using Pay 2 Win as an excuse to prevent a system like this coming to FFXIV.

Pay 2 Win already exists in the form of RMT tells. Move along now, if people were buying gold before they would still buy gold now. The people who haven't bought gold yet would probably be as fearful to still retain that stance as now we are talking about account time purchases which directly deal with SE's money (so to speak)

Diablo III.

They tried to get rid of the obnoxious RMT which exist in Diablo II by introducing a real-money market board.
Has everyone now knows, it was a huge failure, because making it legit' drove people in way more than expected. Players were actually playing "Marketboard: The Game - Featuring a bit of Diablo lore".

You can't compare the practice of buying RMT gold by breaking the rules (and taking the risk of seeing your account banned), to a legitimate way of purchasing the game currency, designed by the developper themselves. Far less people are actually buying gold from RMT than if it was legalized.
The scale is just not the same at all.

Also I love to hear what is Pay 2 Win in this game. Buying Coil runs? Buying crafted gear, that usually can be made if you had the materials / classes? I never understood this crafted gear argument when most people who are actually good on there classes can play better with less gear then those who are buying this stuff and those that already play good on their classes and got crafted gear, would have likely beat whatever content anyway with the current gear..

I'm pretty sure that you know what Pay to Win stand for, and that is related to getting ingame advantages by using real world currency.
All the examples you provided are only purchased with the currency of the game. And there is nothing wrong with that.
But buying these with real world money? Yeah, there is a problem. Inequalities, blablabla, I already spoke about it.

The inflation that people claim can come is already in play in current economies, which enters from unchecked RMT from non-SE illegitimate sources. (IE: The Real Problem preventing something like PLEX from working here.) They would REALLY need to be on the accounts buying gold from outside sources moreso then what they currently do.

As I said, the scale of RMT affecting the economy cannot be compared to the effects a legit system like PLEX would have.

The inflation people are speaking about comes down to the fact that, if you equalize the economy by giving each player a chance to grab some gils from another rich one, then, that first player has absolutly no reason to try and craft or gather material to fill the marketboard, trying to make some gils, since an easier and legitimate way will be available.
Therefore, the demand will completly crush the supply in no time, and the prices will rise like crazy... making the "paying real money for gils" thing even more mandatory.

In fact, the main source of supply will probably come from bots. They will make a ton of money, because they will be doing a job that nobody wants to do anymore. They even would be able to pay their subscription only by the gils they are making, thus, making hell-a-lot cheaper to run a bot... even if it get banned by SE.

The inflation problem is a real concern with more effect than most people in this thread think it will.

Are you talking about the monotonous grind many have been put through for ages having to deal with terribly long cues in the process to even progress? Yes a character jump helps with that. It helps even new players get into the mix and not have to trudge through content years old that are weighed down by the inactivity due to the content being out of date.

So, a new player who could pay real money to skip this "boring leveling" should be able to, but if another new player doesn't quite have the money to do so, he'll just be sitting behind?
Even if you look only at the "new player benefits" from that kind of system, you are already creating inequalities.
Plus, this particular point doesn't apply to FFXIV yet. The content is not "years" old, and we have yet to see how SE will handle new players in Heavensward. What we can tell is they are really trying to keep "old content" alive, would it be with roulettes or the relic quest.

Are you talking about crafting / gathering classes? So a person gets to lvl 50 on crafting? What have they learned from this level boost? How to craft? Proper rotations? Who is losing in this situation exactly, the people who want to make money off these people for a little longer?

Nobody will learn how to craft 1-4 stars stuff by leveling their crafting classes... hell, they can't even do that at 50 before having all classes at 50. Anyway, you are assuming that "learning how to craft" cannot be done if you go straight to 50. Well, that's not true, you can and you will.
Also, again, inequalities. If you have to spend tons of gils to do your leves, to buy your own gear and sell stuff on the market board in order to level up, and another player comes in, takes his credit card and skip all of this, you'll probably make the first player a bit angry/jealous with that system. He will then have the choice of continuing the way he started... or buy a wonderful bag of gils to skyrocket his classes like mister credit card.

This time and dedication argument is up to the player. If they don't want to waste time, a lvl jump is not only a personal decision but often a welcomed one amongst veterans players and WoW, a subscription based game, has proven this. Some players had the argument it was unfair, while many more supported Blizzards decision and bought many of these jump characters, myself included. The game has not suffered because of it.

WoW really cannot be compared to anything in that regard. Plus, they are losing subs like crazy.
The only way they keep surviving, is by welcoming people back with stuff like character boosts.

The state of FFXIV and the state of WoW are completly different.
You were speaking about "years old content"... well, FFXIV doesn't have that yet. We don't even have the first expension.

It's not because "it worked on WoW" that it will work everywhere else.
Taking the context of FFXIV itself would be a better way to argue about that.

[Tiggy]

Entirely why you shouldn't be complaining about it.

Never did. Simply refuting your ridiculous assertion that somehow the fact people did in 110 makes this not p2w. Nothing you just said in this response justifies it either. Just because a few people can do it in 110 does not justify your assertion. The minority does not dictate the whole.

[AlexionSkylark]

It's funny how you brand this "pay to win" with a negative stigma that's totally unjustified. You really mix up stuff.

The term "Pay to Win" was created in freemium games where the items bought in cash shops were IMPOSSIBLE to be obtained otherwise, making people who pay the only ones with the best equipment. It can be expanded to "if you don't pay, you don't win". Now THAT is utterly wrong.

Now, if you have another way of getting the EXACT SAME rewards as the people who paid, why is that such a problem?
It's a CHOICE. You EITHER pay, OR bust your ass playing.

This mentality of "effort spent" in MMOs, and how "it's so unfair, because I "worked" for my rewards, and I want everybody else to do the same" is really, REALLY selfish. Not to mention this is a GAME, not a JOB.

Legalizing RMT will never be "pay to win". Not a single onze of content is being denied to you because you can't pay.
Now you think there's content that should be denied to us because we can't play so many hours per day, or week.

Now that says a lot about who's being the "evil side" in that argument.

[DoctorPepper]

The term "Pay to Win" was created in freemium games where the items bought in cash shops were IMPOSSIBLE to be obtained otherwise, making people who pay the only ones with the best equipment. It can be expanded to "if you don't pay, you don't win". Now THAT is utterly wrong.

Really? Every time I've ever heard somebody mention pay to win it was because people were able to obtain the best items in the game using real money. It seems like you just pulled that out of your rear to be honest.

Buying gil allows you to buy coil runs and the best crafted gear in the game, that's a fact that you seem to be ignoring. Since you can buy the best stuff in the game using gil that makes having a legitimate way to buy gil pay to win in my opinion. If you couldn't buy the best stuff in the game with gil then I might be a little more open to it but you can and that's a fact, period.

What do I know though, I've only been playing MMORPGs for the last 15 years.

[Havenchild]

snip

I'm gonna try to cover everything you stated, forgive me if I miss something.

1&2&3) All more or less say the same thing. This falls solely on SE's responsibility on handling this type of inflation.
Inflation comes from one SOLE source in this game, RMT/Bots (which happen to often be one and the same). If SE so chose to be more adamant about the banning of accounts, known buyers and such this can and will work as RMT will not be capable of selling any gil into the economy, hence no inflation via this source.

4) I'm sure you understand what Pay 2 Win means, and as such, buying a subscription for a month or buying a level 50 character is not giving you any significant advantage over others. You do not know how to play your class better then most who grinded through it from the beginning. People who farmed fates back in 2.0 to hit lvl 50 have proven this when many who tried to get into trials, flunked hard and still do. (Ex. Tanks in Garuda EX.) You are missing much of the lore in the game included main story.
For those who are still going the slow grind route? They have chose to do so. They could have jumped a character equally and they chose not to. Say your counter argument was why should they have to? You are correct, but on the same token, whose to say players will still be doing this content forever? I don't wanna hear a flashback run for relic is sustaining these pre 50 dungeons as most of these dungeons have terrible que times, especially for DPS.

If your grind is slow making it up to current content, that can and more then likely in today's generation equally deter people from getting into your game. Many people drop out long before reaching cap.

5) Just because you can buy your way to success does not automatically mean, you can properly utilize the tools given to you. I've seen and still see countless crafters flub on 3 star and 4 star who "bought" there way to 50 from speed leveling services simply because they understand some of the basics of crafting.

6) An MMO example of this is Warframe. From the beginning the game landed, you can buy silver parts (currency in the game) to make every single armor in the game some more broken then others as well as all the same guns found in the game. F2P game as well.
All these same items? Available as drops from dungeons in the game. Two routes to get these items, most players ACTUALLY chose the free route because it was easily obtainable in game. Almost made it feel like you were wasting money by trying to save time. But were breaking into tangents here, were talking about buying a subscription to the game with in game currency and a character jump.

I've yet to also see an example where a character jump item in a cash shop has negatively affected a games lifespan. If anything it's brushed off as a cash shop option, not a vying alternative.