Ironworks Fishing Rod

[liev]

If you believe 2-4 lucis fishing rods are easier than 2-4 ironworks, then well, what can i say.

Catching 33 easy fish for an extra Lucis is totally worse than catching an additional 104 harder fish (you already caught sovereign and olgoi) to get an Ironworks Rod to dupe in the first place.

Also, please do not decontextualise quotes, you (deliberatly or not) missed out the very pertinent point i made of if you kept up with the halcyon rod upgrade as soon as they were introduced, it required a lot of dedication to do. The point in my post, which you seem to have missed, is that it may seem easy now, but it wasnt when you were doing it as it was released.

I did Forager's Rod when it was released and I did my Supra in the same gear. Yes, it is easier now with the new gear. No, it was never harder than Ironworks. Silver Sovereigns, Olgoi-Khoirkhoi, and Gigant Clams are all VERY easy catches compared to many of the fish required for Ironworks. The entire process from Halcyon Rod to Halcyon Rod Lucis added together took me less than two weeks. Ironworks took a month of non-stop fishing.

Also, again, to get Ironworks you have to get Supra so you can't pretend that the first three stages (Halcyon Rod, Forager's, and Supra) only apply to getting the Lucis.

This point is spurious at best, the other gathring classes have thier OFFHAND which is purchasable, not the MAINHAND, which is what the fishing rod is. No main hand can be purchased with gil in the manner you are claiming.

The fisher upgrade is not the only one that has been replaced, the miner gets thier lucis as does the botanist.

Please please please link me the miner and botanist i80 tool that has been replaced with the lucis.

The entire point was that you can't claim that only fisher got a special upgrade, when Miner and Botanist got new offhand tools are the same time. Item level and slot is irrelevant. The upgrades were parallel.

The secondary points were that Miner and Botanist's special upgrades were comparatively much easier to get and yet they still get to use their special upgrades, while the special rod fisher got and actually had to work for is now useless.

Edit 2/06
The crossed out argument is a red herring and not relevant to the argument presented in the OP.

If you're concerned with fairness to Miner and Botanist, make a separate suggestion thread. The point of this post is that fisher had to work, and work hard to obtain the rod. It is my stance that the rod should at least have a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch.

[DarkmoonVael]

Catching 33 easy fish for an extra Lucis is totally worse than catching an additional 104 harder fish (you already caught sovereign and olgoi) to get an Ironworks Rod to dupe in the first place.


I did Forager's Rod when it was released and I did my Supra in the same gear. Yes, it is easier now with the new gear. No, it was never harder than Ironworks. Silver Sovereigns, Olgoi-Khoirkhoi, and Gigant Clams are all VERY easy catches compared to many of the fish required for Ironworks. The entire process from Halcyon Rod to Halcyon Rod Lucis added together took me less than two weeks. Ironworks took a month of non-stop fishing.

Also, again, to get Ironworks you have to get Supra so you can't pretend that the first three stages (Halcyon Rod, Forager's, and Supra) only apply to getting the Lucis.




The entire point was that you can't claim that only fisher got a special upgrade, when Miner and Botanist got new offhand tools are the same time. Item level and slot is irrelevant. The upgrades were parallel.

The secondary points were that Miner and Botanist's special upgrades were comparatively much easier to get and yet they still get to use their special upgrades, while the special rod fisher got and actually had to work for is now useless.

So, 2-4 does not equal one. That is the end of that. The fact remains that once got, the ironworks can be re-purchases ad nauseum for less than 4800gil each if ever needed.

Fisher is the only gathering class to get a unique i80 main hand as a reward, no others did. Fisher, like all other gathering classes, have to upgrade their equipment through gil apart from their main hand. This makes the ironworks rod unique, and made it a very good reward from when it was introduced until patch 2.5. It is still highly relevant since it can eb given to retainers. MMO's work by upgrading and outdating previous equipment, fisher should not be an exception to this rule.

I have never pretended that the first 3 stages only apply to lucis, you however seem to have down played all the effort into getting a lucis. Again, things become outdated in an MMO, no one should expect that fisher should be the only class to be exempt from this.

Fisher was the ONLY gatherer class to get a special and unique upgrade to its main hand. This is a fact. Offhands on miner and botanist are, like all other gathering equipment, upgraded by making them or purchasing them. the ironworks rod is a unique achievement reward granted to fishers. There is no other equivalent with the other gathering classes.

I for one am grateful to have had the ironworks rod when it was relevant to me, but understand that 1) it was a unique reward to fisher that no other gathering class got an equivalent of and 2) that it would become outdated.

EDIT: TC has redacted the above argument, which was proven to be wrong, in a bid to remove it from the discussion. Argument relevant to OP can not be controlled by TC, relevance is decided by participants and audience.

[liev]

So, 2-4 does not equal one. That is the end of that.

33x3 = 99 which is still less than 104? That's three Lucis rods for less fish than Ironworks.

The fact remains that once got, the ironworks can be re-purchases ad nauseum for less than 4800gil each if ever needed.

The fact remains that you still have to catch 104 more fish to get the Ironworks Rod in the first place. And unless you're getting rods for four retainers, Lucis is less work and better in terms of stats anyway.

Fisher is the only gathering class to get a unique i80 main hand as a reward, no others did. Fisher, like all other gathering classes, have to upgrade their equipment through gil apart from their main hand. This makes the ironworks rod unique, and made it a very good reward from when it was introduced until patch 2.5. It is still highly relevant since it can eb given to retainers. MMO's work by upgrading and outdating previous equipment, fisher should not be an exception to this rule.

Handing out better gear for less work is apparently how MMOs work too?

I have never pretended that the first 3 stages only apply to lucis, you however seem to have down played all the effort into getting a lucis. Again, things become outdated in an MMO, no one should expect that fisher should be the only class to be exempt from this.

All of the effort that went into getting a Lucis is literally all of the same effort that went into getting Ironworks with the exception of the clams.

Let's make a road map.
20 Silver Sovereigns --> 3 Olgoi-Khorkoi --> Okay now you can catch 30 HQ clams, open every game day for 3 hours ET OR you can catch 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches.

That last one? That's Lucis vs. Ironworks. The only thing I've said is that Lucis is easier to get. Now, hopefully you can understand that 30 HQ clams is easier than 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches. I didn't downplay the process of getting a Lucis because it's the exact same process as getting an Ironworks Rod until the last part. I've said that Ironworks Rod is harder to get meaning that catching 30 HQ claims is literally nothing compared to 104 unique fish. This isn't a hard concept.

MMOs work through progression. You get the current best thing, and then you use that current best thing to work toward the new best thing.
Now, considering that you can catch everything you need to get a Lucis with a Forager's Rod and melded AF, Ironworks becomes the ultimate waste of time. It's not a glamour item (see: Luminary). And even if you want to stick to your "but retainers!" argument, that's pretty pathetic for the effort required.

Fisher was the ONLY gatherer class to get a special and unique upgrade to its main hand. This is a fact. Offhands on miner and botanist are, like all other gathering equipment, upgraded by making them or purchasing them. the ironworks rod is a unique achievement reward granted to fishers. There is no other equivalent with the other gathering classes.

We're not going to agree here. An upgrade is an upgrade. The Ironworks Rod was released alongside all of the Forager's upgrades. Giving fisher a new rod slightly better than Supra is the equivalent of giving miner and botanist a new offhand to go with their Supra. That Fisher had to actually work, and work hard, for the upgrade is just a testament to the fact that the rod should've at least had a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch. Supra lasted two patches and was necessary to progress to the Lucis. Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"

Edit 2/06
The crossed out argument is a red herring and not relevant to the argument presented in the OP.

I for one am grateful to have had the ironworks rod when it was relevant to me, but understand that 1) it was a unique reward to fisher that no other gathering class got an equivalent of and 2) that it would become outdated.

You got the Ironworks rod less than a month ago. You enjoyed it for so long. You had Lucis by at least week two. Very hard to get, obviously.

[BobbinT]

Shhhhh.....dont point this out .

lawl

I do enjoy doing achievements anyways. I did have at least 2 luminaries. XD

Although... I do really hope the ironwork rod are storeable in armoire, coz it would be a problem if not. ^^;

[Duuude007]

Personally I am grateful for my Ironworks, equipped on my FSH retainer doing ventures. And the second Ironworks I gave to my other FSH retainer. Saves me a lot of trouble melding to meet the gathering caps on ventures.

[DarkmoonVael]

33x3 = 99 which is still less than 104? That's three Lucis rods for less fish than Ironworks.


The fact remains that you still have to catch 104 more fish to get the Ironworks Rod in the first place. And unless you're getting rods for four retainers, Lucis is less work and better in terms of stats anyway.



Handing out better gear for less work is apparently how MMOs work too?



All of the effort that went into getting a Lucis is literally all of the same effort that went into getting Ironworks with the exception of the clams.

Let's make a road map.
20 Silver Sovereigns --> 3 Olgoi-Khorkoi --> Okay now you can catch 30 HQ clams, open every game day for 3 hours ET OR you can catch 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches.

That last one? That's Lucis vs. Ironworks. The only thing I've said is that Lucis is easier to get. Now, hopefully you can understand that 30 HQ clams is easier than 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches. I didn't downplay the process of getting a Lucis because it's the exact same process as getting an Ironworks Rod until the last part. I've said that Ironworks Rod is harder to get meaning that catching 30 HQ claims is literally nothing compared to 104 unique fish. This isn't a hard concept.

MMOs work through progression. You get the current best thing, and then you use that current best thing to work toward the new best thing.
Now, considering that you can catch everything you need to get a Lucis with a Forager's Rod and melded AF, Ironworks becomes the ultimate waste of time. It's not a glamour item (see: Luminary). And even if you want to stick to your "but retainers!" argument, that's pretty pathetic for the effort required.


We're not going to agree here. An upgrade is an upgrade. The Ironworks Rod was released alongside all of the Forager's upgrades. Giving fisher a new rod slightly better than Supra is the equivalent of giving miner and botanist a new offhand to go with their Supra. That Fisher had to actually work, and work hard, for the upgrade is just a testament to the fact that the rod should've at least had a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch. Supra lasted two patches and was necessary to progress to the Lucis. Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"


You got the Ironworks rod less than a month ago. You enjoyed it for so long. You had Lucis by at least week two. Very hard to get, obviously.

First of all, it is absolutely irrelevant when i obtained the ironworks fishing rod. If you read carefully how i phrase things, i mad eit quite clear thta i was happy that i got it when it was relevant to ME. Going with your logic, i should actually be more angry than you since i had the rod for less time than you before it came obsolete. I, however, can see the benefits to having th e ronworks rod, even for that length of time. I have given a miriad of reasons why this is the case.

You are, quite simply, plain wrong that the ironworks is the equivalent of the foragers offhands. One is an achievement reward, a main hand and i80. The other is part of the normal gearing for the other classes, is created from crafters like all the other gear apart from the main hands and is i70. Miner and botanists have higher gathering and perception requirements for their nodes, and this is reflected with their requirements to have an offhand tool (currently they need 450/450, whilst fisher needs 403/320........403 gathering for Nepto, 320 perception for HQ mahar for the shinisauriousythingymabob). You are just flat out wrong with this comparison.

As for making the gearing up in an MMO easier, this MMO has already done it, multiple times in the past. This is not new at all. Myth, when it first came out was capped at 300. By just increasing this cap, gearing became easier. Putting coil into DF has made gearing easier. However, as stated many many many times by more than one person, the ironworks is an ACHIEVEMENT reward, and is outwith the normal gear cycle.

Personally I am grateful for my Ironworks, equipped on my FSH retainer doing ventures. And the second Ironworks I gave to my other FSH retainer. Saves me a lot of trouble melding to meet the gathering caps on ventures.

Couldn't agree with this more. And lots of others seem to agree with this sentiment as well .

lawl

I do enjoy doing achievements anyways. I did have at least 2 luminaries. XD

Although... I do really hope the ironwork rod are storeable in armoire, coz it would be a problem if not. ^^;

. I enjoyed getting mine as well . I am glad i got it since i can give it them to my retainers, and send them fishing.

[liev]

Miner and botanists have higher gathering and perception requirements for their nodes, and this is reflected with their requirements to have an offhand tool (currently they need 450/450, whilst fisher needs 403/320........403 gathering for Nepto, 320 perception for HQ mahar for the shinisauriousythingymabob). You are just flat out wrong with this comparison.

Miner and Botanist do not need the Forager's Offhand tools to meet the 450/450 requirement. This point is moot.

Miner, Botanist, and Fisher all got Forager's Body, Hands, Legs, and Feet in 2.4. All jobs are equal so far.
ONLY Miner and Botanist got ANOTHER Forager's upgrade...the offhand tools. How do you give Fisher a new offhand tool? You give them a new rod. Again. The source and item level is irrelevant.

Edit 2/06
The crossed out argument is a red herring and not relevant to the argument presented in the OP.

That Fisher had to actually work, and work hard, for the new rod is just a testament to the fact that the rod should've at least had a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch. Supra lasted two patches and was necessary to progress to the Lucis. Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"

This remains true whether you agree with the offhand tools and Ironworks being comparable or not.

Personally I am grateful for my Ironworks, equipped on my FSH retainer doing ventures. And the second Ironworks I gave to my other FSH retainer. Saves me a lot of trouble melding to meet the gathering caps on ventures.

Couldn't agree with this more. And lots of others seem to agree with this sentiment as well .

Considering how difficult and time consuming the rod is to get, having its usefulness reduced to merely extra rods for retainers after a single major patch is pathetic.

As for making the gearing up in an MMO easier, this MMO has already done it, multiple times in the past. This is not new at all. Myth, when it first came out was capped at 300. By just increasing this cap, gearing became easier. Putting coil into DF has made gearing easier. However, as stated many many many times by more than one person, the ironworks is an ACHIEVEMENT reward, and is outwith the normal gear cycle.

All of those things happened at least 2 major patches later. Not only this, but none of those things rendered anything completely obsolete. Incomparable. Old armor has historically been rendered incomplete only every second major patch. Never after just one.

Now, because it is an ACHIEVEMENT reward requiring you to actually work hard for it, which is not unknown to anyone that has responded thus far:

1.

is just a testament to the fact that the rod should've at least had a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch. Supra lasted two patches and was necessary to progress to the Lucis. Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"

2.

Considering how difficult and time consuming (the ACHIEVEMENT for) the rod is to get, having its usefulness reduced to merely extra rods for retainers after a single major patch is pathetic.

3.

Either:
A) The Ironworks Rod should be made better than or at least on par with the Lucis. It's much harder & more time consuming to obtain, so the stats should reflect this. (Preferred)

B) The appearance of the Ironworks Rod should be altered so that it is at least worthwhile as a glamour item. It's very plain and boring. There's nothing special about it.

C) Both!? I can hope!

[SirTaint]

IW is exponentially harder then Lucis. I've been fishing hard for IW and am 70/106. I completed Lucis in a tenth of the time it took me to get those 70 big fish. (Maybe less)

But real fishers are gonna catch them all either way.

[DarkmoonVael]

Miner and Botanist do not need the Forager's Offhand tools to meet the 450/450 requirement. This point is moot.

Miner, Botanist, and Fisher all got Forager's Body, Hands, Legs, and Feet in 2.4. All jobs are equal so far.
ONLY Miner and Botanist got ANOTHER Forager's upgrade...the offhand tools. How do you give Fisher a new offhand tool? You give them a new rod. Again. The source and item level is irrelevant.


This remains true whether you agree with the offhand tools and Ironworks being comparable or not.







All of those things happened at least 2 major patches later. Not only this, but none of those things rendered anything completely obsolete. Incomparable. Old armor has historically been rendered incomplete only every second major patch. Never after just one.

Now, because it is an ACHIEVEMENT reward requiring you to actually work hard for it, which is not unknown to anyone that has responded thus far:

1.


2.


3.

Actually with the lucis coming after the foragers gear, its the lucis that is not needed to gather the new nodes for miner and botanist. Many people were geared enough without the lucis. It is still not the case, no matter how much you shout and highlight things in bright red, that the ironworks is the equivalent of the foragers offhand tools.

Please check the previous discussion, i have never said that the ironworks was not had work. Never. What i have argued is that the lucis going through all the stages when they were currently released was also time consuming. Again, shouting and highlighting things in red does not help the cause of your arguments here what-so-ever. The arguments put forward from you is that the lucis rod is not hard work to get. The argument put forward by myself is that 2-4 ironworks rod are easier to get for your retainers than 2-4 lucis rods. Please re-read the previous posts. Is also comes about with your refusal to acknowledge that the ironworks rod is still useful, which it is, even with the lucis in the game. Others have pointed out this as well, that they still have used for their ironworks fishing rod.

Here is a link, please look at the section that gradiated the difficulty of ALL the big fish in the game and what is needed to catch them. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...r-is-it-%29%29
Please note, at no time is anything higher than the supra rod needed to catch the big fish in this game. Following your logic of the miners and botanist tools, then your entire argument is, in your own words, moot. The ironworks rod was never ever ever needed to catch any of the fish in this game.

Would you like the foragers fishing rod to be upgraded as well? That took time and effort (most people reporting 30+ hours) and was made obsolete as soon as the supra was released. It too should be upgraded to the highest level possible in an arbitrary manner since that hard work has just been undone.

Lets now take the example of other achievement items in the game. The Master series of rings, obtained as an achievement reward like the ironworks fishing rod, were introduced in patch 2.16. At this time i90 rings were exceptionally easy to obtain. But these rings are only i55, and they dont look good either. Shall we start a petition to have these arbitrarily boosted ilvl to match an ilvl of our liking? Also they are not good for glamour, so i want them overhauled, using devs time and resources, so they look as good as my liking.

The ironworks rod is an achievement reward, was never needed to catch any of the fish in the game, and the majority of fishers i know were happy to have got it. Some fishers even still use it since neither the lucis nor the ironworks is need to catch any of the fish in this game.

Maybe you can use your ironworks rod and glamour the lucis tool to it? This way you get to show off that you have the ironworks rod to anyone who examins you avatar whilst fishing and you get to have it look good and dye it. This may be a good solution to your problems.

[liev]

Okay, we’ll start here:

Again, shouting and highlighting things in red does not help the cause of your arguments here what-so-ever.

Your refusal to actually acknowledge any counterpoints that have been brought up and instead repeat yourself doesn’t help your argument. Everything bolded and red is things that have already been said and argued that you, even still, have ignored.

--

Actually with the lucis coming after the foragers gear, its the lucis that is not needed to gather the new nodes for miner and botanist.
...
Here is a link, please look at the section that gradiated the difficulty of ALL the big fish in the game and what is needed to catch them. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...r-is-it-%29%29
Please note, at no time is anything higher than the supra rod needed to catch the big fish in this game. Following your logic of the miners and botanist tools, then your entire argument is, in your own words, moot. The ironworks rod was never ever ever needed to catch any of the fish in this game.

1. It’s common knowledge that the Lucis tools are not necessary for any of the nodes or fish currently in the game. They are obviously intended to prepare us for the future. Thanks for reminding us.
2. This is proof only that the Ironworks Rod was replaced before it ever served an actual purpose. You’re right, the rod is moot. The entire argument is that rod is moot and that it shouldn’t be.

--

It is still not the case, no matter how much you shout and highlight things in bright red, that the ironworks is the equivalent of the foragers offhand tools.

Everything bolded and red is things that have already been said and argued that you refuse to acknowledge, even still.

That Fisher had to actually work, and work hard, for the new rod is just a testament to the fact that the rod should've at least had a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch. Supra lasted two patches and was necessary to progress to the Lucis. Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"

This remains true whether you agree with the offhand tools and Ironworks being comparable or not.

--

your refusal to acknowledge that the ironworks rod is still useful, which it is, even with the lucis in the game. Others have pointed out this as well, that they still have used for their ironworks fishing rod.

This has been addressed four times. Four times.

Considering how difficult and time consuming the rod is to get, having its usefulness reduced to merely extra rods for retainers after a single major patch is pathetic.

And even if you want to stick to your "but retainers!" argument, that's pretty pathetic for the effort required.

Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"

"You can buy additional Ironworks Fishing Rods for your retainers from the Calamity Salvager for 4800gil."

1) You could also buy additional Halcyon Rods and do another Lucis for your retainer. You could do 2nd and even a 3rd extra Lucis before you approach the equivalent of completing the Ironworks Rod. It's 33 fish for each additional Lucis. 33, 66, 99, 132. To get Ironworks Rod you need to catch 104 additional unique fish (you caught Silver Sovereign and Olgoi-Khorkhoi already).
2) Considering how difficult and time consuming the rod is to get, having its usefulness reduced to merely extra rods for retainers after a single major patch is pathetic.

--

Please check the previous discussion, i have never said that the ironworks was not had work. Never.

Please check the previous discussion. I have never said or implied that you said the ironworks was not hard work. Never.

--

What i have argued is that the lucis going through all the stages when they were currently released was also time consuming. … The arguments put forward from you is that the lucis rod is not hard work to get.

Thanks for the recap. I haven’t been reading. Apparently, you haven’t either though.

The only thing I've said is that Lucis is easier to get. Now, hopefully you can understand that 30 HQ clams is easier than 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches. I didn't downplay the process of getting a Lucis because it's the exact same process as getting an Ironworks Rod until the last part. I've said that Ironworks Rod is harder to get meaning that catching 30 HQ claims is literally nothing compared to 104 unique fish. This isn't a hard concept.

--

The argument put forward by myself is that 2-4 ironworks rod are easier to get for your retainers than 2-4 lucis rods. Please re-read the previous posts.

I’ve already explained why this is not the case unless you already have the Ironworks Rod. Please re-read the previous posts.

--

Would you like the foragers fishing rod to be upgraded as well? That took time and effort (most people reporting 30+ hours) and was made obsolete as soon as the supra was released. It too should be upgraded to the highest level possible in an arbitrary manner since that hard work has just been undone.

Unlike the Ironworks Rod, the Forager’s Rod actually had a time when it was exceptionally useful. It was not made obsolete when the Supra was introduced because it became a necessary step in progressing toward Supra. Only after obtaining the Supra was it obsolete. Ironworks Rod, however, is hardly necessary to get the Lucis.

--

Lets now take the example of other achievement items in the game. The Master series of rings, obtained as an achievement reward like the ironworks fishing rod, were introduced in patch 2.16. At this time i90 rings were exceptionally easy to obtain. But these rings are only i55, and they dont look good either. Shall we start a petition to have these arbitrarily boosted ilvl to match an ilvl of our liking? Also they are not good for glamour, so i want them overhauled, using devs time and resources, so they look as good as my liking.

1. These rings were obviously introduced with fresh 50s in mind. They are not hard to get.
2. You love to toss around the word logic. Here’s some logic for you.

Irrespective of not "being a stand out title" it is, non the less a very rare title.

Irrespective of the rings not “looking ‘good’” they are, nonE the less very unique in appearance and unlike any other rings.
The Ironworks Rod, however, looks like basically every other rod in the game with the exception of Halcyon Rod variants.

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Maybe you can use your ironworks rod and glamour the lucis tool to it? This way you get to show off that you have the ironworks rod to anyone who examins you avatar whilst fishing and you get to have it look good and dye it. This may be a good solution to your problems.

Use the inferior tool. Excellent solution. (Edited because I misread this).

--

Now, if you would be so kind, stop responding.

You are obviously satisfied with the Ironworks Rod as it is. You've made this clear. As is evident by the fact that you've done nothing but repeat yourself, you've nothing worthwhile left to contribute to the discussion. Move on.