Ironworks Fishing Rod

**DarkmoonVael** · 02-06-2015 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by liev

Maybe you should more than skim and realize that the condescension began with them. Thanks for your misinformed input.

Other than replying by shouting and getting angry, all you have done is actually dismiss information given rather than provide a case against it. It is utterly poor academic debate skills if all you can say is "no this is not the case" without any other reasoning other than "i dont want this part discussed". The foragers argument was created by yourself, after refusing to acknowledge that this is a unique special achievement reward that fishers got that no other gathering class got. Your crass argument was "well it came out at same time as foragers offhands, ergo same thing".

You state in your OP that what you want most of the 2 suggestions is for the ironworks to be brough on par OR MADE BETTER than the ironworks. You said that. Thats the one YOU want. I mean really, how academically inept do you have to be to put that in your opening arguments as the strongest change you want and then act like a diva when people address it?

And since you can not, for the life of anything, provide a non biased account of how we get these rod, here it is:

This assumes that you are doing everything contemporarily and, for sake of the OP biased attitude, getting everyhing yourself, not buying it.

Halcyon Rod: lvl fisher to 50 and then complete class quest.

Foragers Rod: Requires 20 Silver Sovereign HQ. Usually took 30 hours of fishing. This stage is needed for subsequent rods once.

Halcyon Rod Supra.: now according to OP this only requires 3 big fish, we know the ones, they have a high escape rate even at 2.5 BiS. This however is patently false. It require 1 mastercraft demi materia and 3 fieldcraft 3 demimaterias as well. For the sake of this dicussion we are assuming you are getting these yourself. Contemporarily, masterdemis were usually obtanied through GSM desynth. This required it to be at 80 for a good chance. So we have to level up this desynth and then get master demis, so that one hell of a lot of tomato relish to create to turn in for a chance at desynthing it into a master demi. So we shall say 1-2 mil gil to get it to 80 desynth, and the time and effort and resources to craft 10 relishes per SINGLE chance at a master craft demi. For field craft, popular ways were the carbuncle furnishing items at this time, and surprise, gsm can use them (and before anyone sayes, thick rimmed glasses did not come out in this patch). So we have very expensive mats to deal with here, on my sevrer you were talking about 50k-75k per item to desynth. We need these to drop 10 fieldcraft 3 demi materias. We will go with the amount i had to spend , which was approx 30 desynths, so 1.5Mil-2.25Mil. TOTAL: another class to 80 desynth, 1.5 mil for mats for field demis (would cost 3.5-4 MIL from MB at this time, master craft probably cost in raw mats 300k, however as a master crafter, the time spent crafting just for this is time thta i could have spent making a lot of money.

NOW we come to a point, a nice point, where methods diverge somewhat, and allow dedicated fishers the choice, although in 2.4 we did not yet know this.

Ironworks Fishing Rod: requires 106 unique big fish. 2.3 fish can all be gathered in about 4 days. (Personal experience) hiwever this is no where near enough. For the ironworks, you are probably looking at fishing for 3-4 weeks, when the weather conditions are right. This requires you to gather as your gathering class. It is also currently, as of 2.5, not required to catch any of the big fish in the game (neither is the lucis).

Lucis Fishing Rod: OP states "this only requires 30 fish". Not true. It also requires 20 moonstones and 60 Glaciar crystals. So how do we get these. Moonstone drops one per day from ixal delievery quest. 20 days to get those ones. 4000 GC seals from your GC, 80k total, thats a lot of fates, or you can craft approx 130 militia braclets and hand them in, resource rich way of doing this. Glaciar crystals cost 600GC seals each, or drop from lvl 45 fishing leves, reward is not guaranteed. 36,000 GC seals or approx the use of 30-40 leves, perhaps abandoning ones that dont reward them. But 20 fishing leves, if you gather the fish yourself, will take approx 100 mins. So lots to do there.

So what do we conclude from this? Perhaps that SE have given fishers 2 upgrade pathes to choose from right now, one a reward for doing what we do, the other fairly resource heavy? Neither the ironworks nor the lucis rod are required to catch any of the big fish in the game currently. The OP adamantly refuses to acknowledge the complete work that goes into the lucis rod as well, blatantly curtailing information as to suit their own biased argument. Why is this being brought up? Well it leads into the main point that the OP constantly and consistently ignores, as its not an argument he wants to hear:

Multiple rods.
Now we have retainers, we need to gear said retainers. Shall we see what happened when your character hase both the ironworks rod and the supra/lucis, and wants to gear the retainer up with one of these?

Ironworks and retainers: lets assume we got the ironworks in patch 2.4. We have the ability to get 1-4 fishing retainers. We want to gear them up with the ironworks fishing rod. How do we do this? Well we go to the calamity salavager and pay approx 4800 gil per ironworks rod we need per retainer. I love this, it makes me happy

Halcyon rod supra/lucis: So for these, to get them for the retainers, we need to start by purchasing another halcyon rod from the calamity salvager. Then we need to upgrade these, assuming this is done contemporarily. 1-4 retainers with Supra. 4 master demis per rod. Lots of crafting to get it yourself, would take probably 20 specs to get this amount if you are lucky. Thats 200+ spicy tomato relishes. 40 Field Demi 3. Thought the masters was a lot of crafting, well hahahaha. We said approx 1.5 mil for the first 10, so its 6 mil for these 40 O.o. So for 4 more supras you are looking at a minimum investment of 8Mil, plus the 12 big fish needed. If bought from the MB on my server, it would have been 24-30 mil to buy the demimaterias for these 4. This was before the ironworks came out.

Lucis: so we have for this one the need of 120+ leves, or 144,000 GC seals for the Glaciar Crystals. Either 80 days of ixal dailies, maps that have rare drop chance or 320,000 GC seals for the moonstones. Here we also have to get 30 big fish per rod, so 120 fish as well.

So, you seem to think that getting multiple ironworks for your retainers is difficult? Lol

OP, you shout, throw insults around, yet fail to engage with the debate. Rather you attempt to restrict what is allowed to be brought up (this is a sign of a weak argument in the first place. Also, historically, this is what was employed by various totalitarian states in a bid to censor free thought. Look at communist russia et al). My points have had to be brought up multiple times since you fail to offer any other argument against them other than "i am right since i have said so" or even better, bring things up, then complain when people point out that thats not the case, and give an argument against it. This was a perfectly cordial discussion until you lost your composure, not me.

Calling someone incomptant because you can not handle to argument says a lot more about you than it does me.

Point 1). You brough up the foragers offhand in an attempt to state that the ironworks rod is not uniques, since according to you, they are one and the same. This has been shown to be untrue. Shout about it if you want, you are wrong, and you brough this up as an argument to support your case. It was a non-argument as we can now see.

Point 2). Wether fisher get special treatment is part of the debate, no matter how much you try and censor this. We were the only gathering class to get he i80 tool at that time, there were no other equivalents. Why doe we get that soecial treatment then arrogantly expect to be given more with an arbitrary ilvl increase?

Point 3). When dealing with an academically constructed paper (and i am i no means suggesting you post is, it is as far from academic as possible with the inherent biased arguments and the non-engagement of the author and attempt to censor), the strongest arguments are usually introduced from the outset, identified by the author. This is what you, as the author have done, by stating that you would prefere the ilvl increase over all the others. This is what has been engaged with. If you dont like this, then perhaps you should learn how to delineate between the strongest preference you have as the author and other suggestions which you want to have considered on equal grounding. Again, this issue has come from your poor choice of words and communication of your wishes.

4) no matter how much you call the argument that fisher have got special treatment a red herring, you have yet to give ANY evidence of this other than "because i say so". By saying that you wish to retain the special-ness ((sic) author uses a non existent word), you have just defeated your main points, by agreeing with me that the ironworks rod is unique. You can not have the ironworks rod both being special (read: unique) and having exact equivalents with the other 2 gathering classes of the foragers off hands.

Other people have replied to this thread, the majority of them seem to agree with the fact that we are glad to have the ironworks rod, we see uses for it, it is still relevant and that going by this, ilvl increase is not needed.

Again, with the author being unable to engage with the points that have had to be brought up multiple times, he has resorted to shouting, petty insults and the distinct inability to engage with arguments, instead attempting to censor said arguments.

Also, the author has had to, on multiple occasions, update the original piece to deal with the arguments that have been brought up, whilst claiming that they are bad arguments. By doing this, the author is actually showing that these arguments have academic credence, and have to be dealt with. However, what the author has failed to do is actually bring up counter arguments to these that are in any way satisfactory, instead he has resorted to the lowest form of mudslinging, which the audience has picked up on and commented on. Thus, yet again, the author arguments are being greatly diminished by attitude of mind alone. The inability of the author to engage with the arguments in a way befitting the discussion possibly reflects the weakness that is inherent in this argument, as well as the basic agenda that is apparent throughout this piece of work; the author is unhappy that in pursuing this Halycon rod upgrade to ironworks contemporarily, he has had to put in a lot of effot. Now, with apparent changes in the system, this same upgrade path has been eased, and has allowed a lot more people to persue this. Refusing to acknowledge the benefits that the ironworks rod still has, the author pursues the same stale argument that "its not fair", putting the self before the collective.

We have, on all accounts, seen the weakness in these arguments, and can conclude that the authors true intent is to persue an agenda that ignores pertinant facts, and when confronted with said facts, the author resorts to mudslinging and shouting, often times tying himself up in his own arguments, and, given the above, greatly erroding his own arguments.

**Duuude007** · 02-06-2015 07:52 PM

This thread still going on?

Lucis made it much much easier to get Ironworks for my retainers. I have no complaints, and am amazed that you continue to.

It took less than 3 weeks to earn Ironworks (and 100% fishing log) now. And this is me playing casually. I had fewer than 5 Greens before I got Lucis.

Difficult stuff will be made easier as the game progresses. This is the nature of an MMO. Get over yourself already.

**ORLYARLY** · 02-07-2015 01:37 AM

One big thing I'd like to see added to Fisher is an off hand tackle box. It doesn't need stats I just want an alternate box to store all the bait.

**liev** · 02-07-2015 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by liev

Inc

"ironwroks isnt the same as foragers offhand this is a main point you cant automatically just get rod of it""
"ironworsk is still useful because my retainer needs it so there's no reason it should be any more special than that because ironworks rod was totally made with retainers in mind and every fisher has fisher retainers"
"i personally am greteful for my ironworks rod unlike you"

isn't that a direct quote? but from which post? answer: all of them since page one

thanks for your input, very good information to repeat 8 9 times

yep called it

**liev** · 02-07-2015 11:38 AM

@ All of the other steps for Lucis:

Originally Posted by liev

Also, again, to get Ironworks you have to get Supra so you can't pretend that the first three stages (Halcyon Rod, Forager's, and Supra) only apply to getting the Lucis.

From the top of page two.

@ Moonstones and Glacier Crystals:

Does not make the Lucis harder, just more expensive if you're lazy.

**liev** · 02-07-2015 11:42 AM

@ retainers....again....

Originally Posted by liev

because ironworks rod was totally made with retainers in mind and every fisher has fisher retainers"

Originally Posted by liev

Catching 33 easy fish for an extra Lucis is totally worse than catching an additional 104 harder fish (you already caught sovereign and olgoi) to get an Ironworks Rod to dupe in the first place.

Originally Posted by liev

33x3 = 99 which is still less than 104? That's three Lucis rods for less fish than Ironworks.

Originally Posted by liev

The fact remains that you still have to catch 104 more fish to get the Ironworks Rod in the first place. And unless you're getting rods for four retainers, Lucis is less work and better in terms of stats anyway.

Originally Posted by liev

MMOs work through progression. You get the current best thing, and then you use that current best thing to work toward the new best thing.
Now, considering that you can catch everything you need to get a Lucis with a Forager's Rod and melded AF, Ironworks becomes the ultimate waste of time. It's not a glamour item (see: Luminary). And even if you want to stick to your "but retainers!" argument, that's pretty pathetic for the effort required.

**liev** · 02-07-2015 11:50 AM