Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[ViviAnimus]

Are you serious, Sovalou? Always these same illogical arguments arguments, I swear I am going to melt because of the amount of stuff on here. Stuff like:

You can clear it with a SMN - therefore it's ok
Every class has it's downside - therefore it's ok
You have downturn on every class - therefore it's ok
...

I'm going to say it once again. Summoner's DPS is in every front weaker than BLM. Weaker ST, weaker AoE and weaker burst. It has weaker utility and that makes the Black Mage far superior to SMN. The amount of input and skill you need to perform on a Summoner is a lot higher than it is on melee and Black Mage at the moment. Not that SMN is a difficult class, it's just hard to get high numbers. It has to be absolutely perfect.
That's the problem. Summoner is outshined in every single aspect by other classes. There is no reason to play it in endgame content and that is a problem. Why is this so hard to understand? Even SE acknowleged that SMN is weaker than all classes and that they are looking into it

[Viridiana]

so your saying until I do turns 10-13 all other content is doable as a smn, an even then those 4 special trials are still clearable with the way smn is now. I understand that there is a Mp issue for sustained dps but like it was mentioned earlier all forms of dps have a form of down time even blms.

(In 2.4) So you're saying that all content is doable on DRG. Even turns 10-13 are doable as it stands. I understand there's a Magic Defense issue, but that just means getting better gear.

(In 2.2) So you're saying that all content is doable on BLM. Even turns 6-9 are doable as it stands. I understand movement is an issue, but that just means getting better gear and minimizing movement.

(In 2.0) So you're saying that all content is doable on WAR. Even Twin is doable as it stands. I understand there's a mitigation issue, but that just means getting better gear.

[Dyvid]

The amount of input and skill you need to perform on a Summoner is a lot higher than it is on melee and Black Mage at the moment. Not that SMN is a difficult class, it's just hard to get high numbers. It has to be absolutely perfect.

That's by design. From the start SE wanted to make certain jobs more difficult to get maximum performance similar to MNK vs DRG. You say that BLM is better than SMN in all aspects but maybe the SMN you're judging against was subpar therefore had a weaker output. Also SE has confirmed SMN has a MP issues in FCoB, not that they are weaker than other classes.

[ShinryuReishiki]

That's by design. From the start SE wanted to make certain jobs more difficult to get maximum performance similar to MNK vs DRG. You say that BLM is better than SMN in all aspects but maybe the SMN you're judging against was subpar therefore had a weaker output. Also SE has confirmed SMN has a MP issues in FCoB, not that they are weaker than other classes.

MP is the main issue. It takes away the one utility SMN has over other DPS roles as well as hinders its DPS. Fix MP and SMN becomes more considerable.

It will still be lower than BLM potential in DPS, but having a usable Raise may be a worthwhile trade-off. Even groups that have everything on farm make silly mistakes. As it is now, if someone goofs...
"Shin, can you get him up?"
*looks at MP*
"Uh... Nope."

[Dyvid]

MP is the main issue. It takes away the one utility SMN has over other DPS roles as well as hinders its DPS. Fix MP and SMN becomes more considerable.

It will still be lower than BLM potential in DPS, but having a usable Raise may be a worthwhile trade-off. Even groups that have everything on farm make silly mistakes. As it is now, if someone goofs...
"Shin, can you get him up?"
*looks at MP*
"Uh... Nope."

Honestly though we'll never have all jobs equal in terms of dps output because parsers won't let us. I say as long as the difference is within 5% to 10% it's okay. Problems really start when it gets into the 10% to 25% realm where bad things start happening. Also as far as I'm concerned as long as the group is having fun and you get wins, does it really matter your dps is slightly lower than your BLM buddy? Also those combat raises came in handy during my Odin fight. I told the healers to focus on keep us alive and I'll get the dps that fall while my DoTs do the dpsing.

[ViviAnimus]

10% is alright you say? Let us see. BLM 550 DPS - SMN 500 DPS. 10 minute fight. Boss HP = 1 million
SMN total damage = 300000 | BLM total damage = 330000 damage. So BLM does 3% extra damage in terms of 100% boss HP. Also, in theory, BLM does around 12% more damage. So it's probably around 4% extra damage on a 100% scale.
Considering this, BLM does a lot more damage, has the best single target damage, has the best AoE damage and has the best utility at this point in time. So yes, it does matter that SMN is outshined in every aspect of the game because it makes the class very unattractive to play and keeps players like me forced to play BLM so get the best out of it. And I am a pretty good Black Mage. I want to be able to play Summoner again and pull those numbers, I would actually like higher numbers, because let's face it. Summoners are worth doing at least more ST damage.

[Havenchild]

That's by design. From the start SE wanted to make certain jobs more difficult to get maximum performance similar to MNK vs DRG. You say that BLM is better than SMN in all aspects but maybe the SMN you're judging against was subpar therefore had a weaker output. Also SE has confirmed SMN has a MP issues in FCoB, not that they are weaker than other classes.

I don't think you realize how weak this argument is. There is a standard of SMNs that have to go quite above and beyond normal gameplay, including myself to achieve these high numbers and quite frankly it is most definitely imbalanced vs. BLM. The effort I have to go through to achieve the decent numbers I pull, is very high where the BLM I party with while he plays very good as well, is surpassing me with relative ease in EVERY environment.

Why were DRGS buffed exactly? Simple, to compete with Monks and Ninjas that were taking over the meta in the raiding environment. Not to mention the issue that forced SE's hand (imo), of all the magic based mechanics destroying DRGs.

SMN needs an adjustment to ease it or reward it. It is quite possibly the hardest class to play and maximize on versus any other class. To then go through all that work and still be lower then every other DPS outside of a BRD (playing songs mind you) is really really bad, because you basically kill the class by it being unused. Some of the best SMNs even on these forums, generally agree something needs to be adjusted to ease the DPS discrepancy. They tend to also post more subtle QoL changes which can affect the playstyle to make it more MP sustainable. Do not feel crappy SMNs are suggesting for buffs because it is generally anything but that. THe raiding enviorment mainly FCOB is hurting SMNs. If you have to jump through hoops and ladders to keep up with the rest of the classes that dont have to do that only to fall short of other classes anyway. That is a problem that needs addressing.

Either the class needs to be rewarded for putting in all that extra effort, or it needs to be MP solvent to properly utilize all it's tools to DPS. We should be able to DPS on this class, not have to sacrifice our DPS, which is already in rapid decline throughout a fight, just to keep going. It' makes no sense to contribute to the negative trend that is SMN DPS by utilizing a tool that is supposed to "help us" when it does anything but.

Mind you I'd llike to stress the point that recently they acknowledged an MP imbalance to actions vs other classes issue, which means yes it IS an actual problem.

[Dyvid]

Problems really start when it gets into the 10% to 25% realm where bad things start happening.

Also, in theory, BLM does around 12% more damage.

Then I guess we have a problem huh.

snip

There is no argument to be made unless you are making one. They wanted certain jobs to be more difficult to master than other to provide players an alternative in not only style but challenge. And yea, there is always going to be a minor DPS gap between MNK, DRG, NIN, BRD, BLM, SMN, and soon to be MAC. That's a fact in MMOs that people don't understand. Again, also long as it is minor degrees between the six you shouldn't have the things FFXI did like penta spam DRG, RNG only, or BLM burn parties. That's what balance is.

As for the FCoB, the mana issue is being worked and doesn't mean SMN is gimped in other content like the original content of this post suggest. The fact that anyone says SMN dps sucks in general only hurts the job and the players that enjoy it. Any career SMN knows this mind set isn't true.

[ViviAnimus]

In case you didn't notice, I gave you an example as to how even 10% is a significant amount of DPS. But yes, there is indeed a problem. All the people who are shouting out that Summoner DPS is a lot lower and awful compared to the rest are career Summoners. It doesn't come from people who do dungeons with their Summoner. I must say this for the 100th time now. Summoner is obsolute in every single aspect that really matters gaming wise. Not enjoyment, but gaming wise. It's broken in the sense that even though it's enjoyable, it isn't pragmatic and that is a huge problem for end tier gaming content. There you have it. Even in dungeons if you want to take a caster, you take a BLM, it's that simple

[Akiza]

Their is an imbalance between Black Mage and Summoner design. The problem is Black Mage has 12% more potency then the Summoner and is easier to play which means even if both players had equal gear and skill level the Black Mage will always destroy the Summoner in DPS. SE either has to redesign the Summoner so its as easy to play as the Black Mage or give the Summoner a 17% increase in potency.