Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Xisin]

yep those kill numbers were back in early November/October with the exception of T13... how were your numbers back in November/December on these fights? in i110 playing as cautious as I did. My most recent numbers are out there if you want to find them its pretty easy to do so (as of 3 weeks ago, so my gear was like i122 + i130 wep at the time, I haven't submitted anything since.) Those nov clear vids featured many things I don't do now. The t12 was a first clear the t11 was my alt on first use, the t13 was a first clear. the t10 was something I put up as a result of someone asking me of a recording of what I did to break 500+ on t10 and I messed up a bunch with a rather embarrassing mistake at the end, I do not only talk about my best of the best performances. I need to also say that you stated very recently that parses really don't measure squat.

Unless you reply back with a fib I'll leave it be.

- your gear will change as a smn - so all that lost dps on gear will come back naturally. I highly doubt the next set will be so spell speed saturated Gear sets are easier to change than your hard values on your spells

- If you stop running out of mp and are able to keep up shadow flare + maintain Ruin 2s + use miasma 2 + use festers instead of energy drain your dps will improve, being stuck with garuda 24/7 due to mp issues also isn't helping summoner. serious mp cost buffs should fix this

- Asking for something for smns out of spell speed is fair and sure you should not have a useless stat. Quite honestly summoner should improve its numbers when the world of darkness gears is released.

- Asking for potency is not the way, adding a mere 5 potency per tick on Bio 2 would make it a whopping 50 more potency better, Miasma 2 would see a 40 point increase and Bio would see a smaller 30 point increase - With that in mind SMNs much like bard have near 100% if not 100% up time on everything if played properly.

[ViviAnimus]

Don't worry, I took all that into account. Hence why I mentioned that they were presumably first kill video, Xisin, and for first kill videos, it's not too impressive. That is all the data, I had. Of course I realise your best performances outshine your first kills greatly, as do mine. But alright, there no use to quarrel over numbers. I have no issue with you being a better Black Mage. It was just that you have no rational foundation to make that claim.
The gear, I agree with your remark. Although having spell speed on the High Allagan and Dreadwyrm book for example shows how ignorant they are at SE or how they are for some reason doing it that I do not yet know of.
Yes, MP should be fixed, I agree! The world of Darkness gear is most likely going to be around ilvl 120. If you are to replace the 3-4 pieces that have the useless SS, you would have to sacrifice 10 to even 15 int. So I'm afraid that it doesn't really solve anything.
You shouldn't up the potency of the dots. The potency of Fester should be more so you can actually sustain a better DPS instead of it dropping to a certain points and never being able to get it back up. That's what I suggest.

[Tex_Mex]

SMN is better than BLM at NOTHING, and that is the real heart of the problem. I don't care what they change, DPS or utility, but if the SMN can never do ANYTHING better than BLM in FCoB, then we have a serious balance issue.

It is of vital importance that DPS classes are close in line with their available alternatives, otherwise you get situations like the one we are in. Look at the 3 melee, they all bring something unique to the raid and they are are well balanced:

ST DPS: MNK>NIN>DRG
AoE DPS: DRG>NIN>MNK
Utility: MNK>NIN>DRG (debatable)

BRD has no comparison because it is mandatory for everything FCoB (though maybe machinist will help balance this)

Now compare with SMN and its one alternative BLM:
Utility: BLM>SMN
ST DPS: BLM>SMN
AoE DPS: BLM>SMN
Sustainability: BLM>SMN

Please swap one of those around so that SMN at least has some merit. This misbalance has been here for a long time, it was just not as noticeable during SCoB timeframe because of the way SMN gear scales compared to BLM. Now that 120+ gear is available, the gap is massive.

[Xisin]

I think the mp values should be adjusted before potency on anything is touched, fix things one step at a time as not to break the class, this includes fester for me, naturally with mp savings you won't need to energy drain as much (and maybe it'll become unofficial sch use only - the op cousin of the smn)

That's all I have to add to this discussion otherwise I'd be repeating myself over and over and just arguing.

[Judge_Xero]

I think the mp values should be adjusted before potency on anything is touched, fix things one step at a time as not to break the class, this includes fester for me, naturally with mp savings you won't need to energy drain as much (and maybe it'll become unofficial sch use only - the op cousin of the smn)

That's all I have to add to this discussion otherwise I'd be repeating myself over and over and just arguing.

I'm still not convinced that SMN issues are MP issues. Energy Drain and Fester in themselves are such a small portion of SMN damage outside of the ability to burst damage on mobs.

Just imagine that SMN had unlimited MP. How much could you realistically increase your Damage by. I estimate 15-20 DPS over a 10 minute fight where you aren't having to pace yourself.
+40 Potency/minute using Miasma II with Contagion
More AA damage by spamming Ruin II
100% Fester vs using Energy Drain 1/3 of the time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately that still leaves SMN behind by a large margin @ i130

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I thought that part of the issue between BLM and SMN was that SMN gear scaling was lower than BLM, thus causing BLM to essentially out-gear SMN at the same iLvl - but after further examination post 2.4 - they scale equally from gear. (other than the way Spell Speed effects SMN)

What I mean by they scale equally from gear is:
100 Potency does X damage for BLM @ iLvl
100 Potency does X damage for SMN @ iLvl

----------------------------------------------------------------

I did a Potency/s breakdown of SMN (I can't remember where I put it, but I believe it was around 118 Potency/s single target with 100% up time) including the pet.

I'm curious what the average potency/s of a BLM single target rotation is, because I suspect it must be much higher. Not including Thunder/Fire procs.

I'm no BLM - but I estimate that BLM single target potency/s is in the area of 130 Potency/s not counting the benefit of Random Procs, which could probably bring it up to 135 Potency/s.

So that brings BLM 10% higher than SMN given the same gear + the potential for an additional 5%+

[Tex_Mex]

I'm still not convinced that SMN issues are MP issues. Energy Drain and Fester in themselves are such a small portion of SMN damage outside of the ability to burst damage on mobs.

Just imagine that SMN had unlimited MP. How much could you realistically increase your Damage by. I estimate 15-20 DPS over a 10 minute fight where you aren't having to pace yourself.
+40 Potency/minute using Miasma II with Contagion
More AA damage by spamming Ruin II
100% Fester vs using Energy Drain 1/3 of the time.

Xisin has made it abundantly clear that he believes SMN is not in need of a DPS increase. I do not agree with that stance; however, it is important to take smaller steps when buffing classes to avoid one class becoming entirely overpowered. As of right now, BLM is very overpowered when compared to SMN, but if we buff SMN too far than SMN will just become overpowered and we will be in the same crappy situation again.

[Tex_Mex]

Slightly buffing the MP sustainability would help some, and it would also provide very minor DPS increase since you could fester more often, but it would not be enough for SMN to still compete with BLM in any of the 4 categories that I listed.

I am in favor of a slight buff to SMN sustainability, and also a slight buff to their ST DPS capability (likely through their pet so as to not buff SCH). I believe that SMN single target DPS should be roughly 2-3% higher than BLM, to make up for the fact that their AoE damage is nowhere near as good.

Even with both of these things looked at, BLM would still be preferable over SMN for a lot of final coil due to the weaknesses of DoT mechanics against adds that only live for a short time, but at least the SMN would have a niche. The only FCoB turn they would have an edge on BLM is T11 due to the lack of smaller adds.

[Xisin]

and what if crit and det replaced all spell speed on your gear? The problem lies not in abilities alone, it's fairly compounding and if I'm correct in the assumption isolated to patch 2.4/2.5. every 4-5 det should roughly equal 1 int. It isn't unheard of for SE to change stats on items (recall allagan boots i90 version) I'm mainly talking about the lolwtf dreadwyrm book. Just proper itemization would add about 5-10 more dps, and looking at your previous numbers smns would then beat blm in 10 and 11. This would easily put them over the 500 marker, maybe above 520 depending on management during adds.

[Judge_Xero]

and what if crit and det replaced all spell speed on your gear? The problem lies not in abilities alone, it's fairly compounding and if I'm correct in the assumption isolated to patch 2.4/2.5. every 4-5 det should roughly equal 1 int. It isn't unheard of for SE to change stats on items (recall allagan boots i90 version) I'm mainly talking about the lolwtf dreadwyrm book. Just proper itemization would add about 5-10 more dps, and looking at your previous numbers smns would then beat blm in 10 and 11. This would easily put them over the 500 marker, maybe above 520 depending on management during adds.

I updated my above post to include what I feel is a reasonable value for BLM Potency/s to make a comparison for SMN Potency/s.

Gear wise, you are correct that better itemization for SMN could probably add an additional 5-10 DPS. (I'm to the idea that it would be closer to 5 DPS)

On average this would leave a gap of ~50 DPS for any given turn in FCOB, which brings me back to that Potency/s value of BLM that is 10% higher.

T10 - SMN 470 vs BLM 525 (SMN + 10% = 517 DPS)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So going from 2COB to FCOB we have the increase damage from gear + more up-time in FCOB for BLM to maintain damage, which makes this difference more obvious.

i.e. (i106)
BLM 442 DPS max
SMN 401 DPS max

So you only start out with a 41 DPS difference. Add in movement + boss jumps etc and you only end up with +/- 10 DPS between each

FCOB (i111)
BLM 460 DPS
SMN 417 DPS

Out of the gate, BLM starts 43 DPS higher with the potential for more.

Estimated DPS i131
BLM 585
SMN 531

(a whopping 56 DPS higher - almost exactly 10% higher) - does not include SMN loss of damage for things dying faster, or lucky BLM procs (less tick time)

- Prior to BLM buffs in 2.3

Estimated: BLM 115 Potency/s with the option for %5+

So...was BLM actually well balanced prior to it's buffs?

------------------------

I mean Melee DPS is getting pretty crazy, but prior to 2.3 BLM buffs at least the mage classes were close to equal.

[Lavieh]

Snip.

I don't think so, you can test SMN DPS while naked and it won't make a lick of difference. Itemization would just help them from falling even more behind, but it won't catch them up. Easily one strength that BLM has over SMN is that they scale incredibly WELL with anything stat but they scale the best with the stat that you can gain the most of.

If anything SMN DPS may just very well be a scaling problem in between INT/WD and how spell speed interacts with them but given that is a lot harder to balance without breaking a class SE could just simply buff a SMN's single target utility.