Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[OneWingedSora]

Cuz ppl suck... spam >Ruin II then complain about mana issues..... i NEVER get dry on my SMN and my DPS its always 400+... i also res ppl btw

You say that as if 400+ is something to brag about. 400+ is still the weakest DPS.

[Akiza]

"Beasts gods". Meanwhile half (if not more) of these "beast gods" are humanoid or even robotic. Not in all Final Fantasy games were these summoners persistent and were used much like a spell. So this creates two versions of "summoners": One being a "spike damage" class and another as "sustained damage class". Not even all of them were capable of using crowd control and deal a lot of damage, if any, when using these summons.The "Summoner" you are referring to here is a typical Final Fantasy XI or Tactics summoner: Which was capable of dealing a lot of damage with a single ability with their 2-hour (now 1-hour) ability and had the option to choose a subjob that allowed them to cast black or white magic. However, neither are true to the "iconic summoner" you mentioned as both the FF11 as well as FFT summoners are near polar opposites damage wise: Burst vs sustained.

Meanwhile you're also forgetting the actual summoners of Final Fantasy. Whom have nearly nothing in common with each other. Or even the summoning feature in other games: Anyone could be a summoner in these Final Fantasy installments.
You could conclude that there's nothing iconic about summoners in particular. Characters who were actually summoners or the class itself in the previous Final Fantasy games were wide and diverse. The only thing that would separate summoners from other pet users would be the fact that their pets or familiars are a deity/god.

I see you didn't poke holes in my argument on how a Black Mage isn't iconic to Final Fantasy. By your reasoning I can say the only thing that separates a Black Mage from a Sorcerer is it's name since there is nothing in particular that makes it a Black Mage. Summoner in tactic was sustained while the summons were Single target and AoE Spike Damage.

[Skeith-Adeline]

on how a Black Mage isn't iconic to Final Fantasy

[Wintersandman]

I don't know how this thread derailed so much but the whole thing about iconic classes is ridiculous. If anything Warrior is the least Iconic job in this game as it currently stands (ignoring 3.0 jobs). Ninjas, Summoners, Black Mages, White Mages, Paladins, Dragoons, Monks, and even Bards are staples within the final fantasy community.

Final Fantasy (NES)

Wait you have White Mage, Red Mage, Black Mage, Monk, and Ninja and Knight(aka Paladin) if you eat a rat tail. I don't know who would but if it means the matter of life or death for the Light Warriors then Yolo.

Final Fantasy IV (Final Fantasy II US)(SNES)

This game has the Paladin (Dark Knight cleansed), Summoner (Rydia), Bard - (that one chump Edward), Dragoon (Cain), White Mage - (Rosa the one chick who you have to save multiple times, oh yeah Porom the twin), Black Mage (Palom)

Final Fantasy VI (Final Fantasy III US)(SNES)

We have Ninja (Shadow) and you may as well call Sabin a Monk. Terra or Celes would be considered of the knight classes (Paladin/Dark Knight/Rune Knight). Mages in this game weren't handled as a stand alone class and this goes along with summoning.

Final Fantasy VII (PS)

Tifa was our monk, Aeris was our WHM (I know all of you used her for heals don't lie), Cid is your dragoon, and Yuffie was the Ninja. Again otherwise most magic was handled by every class and again the same with summoning.

Final Fantasy VIII (PS)

This game was in a realm of it's own. Summons were there magic were there but was an entirely different breed since none of the classes/jobs were as apparent. I think the summons were the only thing that made this even feel remotely like a Final Fantasy Game.

Final Fantasy IX (PS)

This game felt more like the original final fantasy especially when looking at Vivi. So we have our Knight (Adelbert), Vivi (Black Mage), Garnet (Summoner/White Mage), Eiko (White Mage/Summoner), and Amarant (Monk). Oh and I almost forgot Freya (Dragoon)

Final Fantasy X (PS2)

Do I really need to?

saving just in case I do

Final Fantasy XI (PS2)

Do I really need to?

saving just in case I do

Final Fantasy XII (PS2)

Do I really need to?

saving just in case I do

Final Fantasy XIII (PS3)

Do I really need to?

saving just in case I do

But with all this talk about Iconic where is our thief. Don't tell me it is a rogue. I never played Tactics which is why it isn't on the list. Yes I know I should but that is a separate conversation.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I see you didn't poke holes in my argument on how a Black Mage isn't iconic to Final Fantasy. By your reasoning I can say the only thing that separates a Black Mage from a Sorcerer is it's name since there is nothing in particular that makes it a Black Mage. Summoner in tactic was sustained while the summons were Single target and AoE Spike Damage.

Eh, well you just answered your own query about the iconic value about black mage.

And I don't believe summons in tactics had any single target ability. Unless, of course, you target a square with so much height difference it doesn't reach the other tiles. So where's the single target again? Inb4 spike damage argument: Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XI*, Final Fantasy XIII and of course Final Fantasy XIV. Inb4 summoners being buffers: Final Fantasy IV, Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy X. And inb4 summoners equiping subjobs to cast white- or black magic: The only ones I can name where this is possible would be Tactics and Final Fantasy XI**. Please do elaborate how whatever you present to us sustains anything you claim. If anything, you're heavily contradicting yourself everywhere. Not just in this topic, mind you.

* FF11 avatars were more about sustained damage really. The Astral Flow ability was their only "spike hit" they had with a really, really hefty price.
** May be wrong on some of the installments mentioned here and there. Doesn't change the fact, though.

[lalmvpkobe]

I understand your complaints summoner is the worst dps atm. However, there will always be a "worst" dps we're literally going in circles buffing the weakest class until the new weakest class complains and its endless. In terms of doing less dps than blm why is that such an issue. You shouldn't feel entitled to being the best dps caster. The bigger issue imo is the difference in caster vs melee dps. Why we fight for 10-30 theoretical max dps differences melee on a whole are over double that and growing if casters dps was closer to melee overall none of this would be a legitimate problem.

[ViviAnimus]

People like lalmvpkobe don't understand the concept of all this. It's not that we need a buff because we are the weakest only. Summoners needs a buff because there is no reason to use the class in high end gaming over a BLM as a caster. The discepancy needs to be closed down and they need to focus on making it on par with BLM in one way or another. It has nothing to do with entitlement. BLM has better AoE, ST and unique utility. It's absolutely disgraceful that you would even think about entitlement to be honest.

The discepancy between melee and caster I can get behind to be fair. I'm not too far behind melee on T10, 12 and mostly top DPS on T13. It's pretty well balanced when it comes to that.

[Osmond]

Had some thoughts for awhile, but the only thing I can think of is this. I don't think we need a potency buff, but more of a MP issue.....mostly aetherflow. I thought of increasing the effect, but I don't think it's needed. I think it needs to decrease the recast time from 60secs to 45secs. I think that will increase SMNs DPS at the same time keep your Mana at a good rate overtime. I think that should be a job exclusive though. SCH is fine in keeping their MP up w/ the situation they are in, but SMNs MP to stay sup while keeping DPS high...it's the only thing I can think of is to decrease the recast time just a bit.

[ViviAnimus]

No, we need a potency buff too. Seriously. As I have said before.
Out of all the things: AoE, single target damage and utility, Black Mage has the upper hand. Looking at damage output, BLM has the upper hand and MP fix isn't going to address that. This is because BLM will still have higher damage and inifinite MP resource.

[sovalou]

so your saying until I do turns 10-13 all other content is doable as a smn, an even then those 4 special trials are still clearable with the way smn is now. I understand that there is a Mp issue for sustained dps but like it was mentioned earlier all forms of dps have a form of down time even blms.