I want to stop playing Summoner.... But I cant

[Lavieh]

Snip

I can agree with you that MP is the greater issue. But It should also be well known that SMN's single target damage is consistently lower than that of BLM's. Akiza definitely exaggerated but there is a little truth to their statement. SMN falls behind about 15-20 DPS behind a BLM on a test dummy parse. Now of course we don't live in a test dummy world but mechanics effect SMN just like they effect BLM, especially in the current meta.

[Sleigh]

I know this is from the first page but ...

First, 9000 damage is chump change in the Final Coil, where bosses start with 900k and quickly climb to over 1 million HP each, which doesn't even include adds. Second, a SMN loses more damage by running out of MP than by using Energy Drain. Whining about using Energy Drain is equivalent to a BLM whining about having to move in the middle of a fight.

Also, BLM's have better sustained DPS than every DPS class in the game. It's literally their thing.

1. It's not 10-15 DPS in FCoB, it can be much, much more, 50+ easily. While insignificant in a group whose overall DPS is fine for the content, it was harder to bear back in lower gear, and even now it's a liability in T13 for many groups still progressing (and was a hell of a liability in T13 in the initial few weeks I'll tell you this). Also no, BLM dealing with movement is part of their job and their difficulty; SMN running out of MP is not in their design, or at least, it doesn't fit in their design due to their low-end numbers.

SMN MP management is supposed to be about not playing dumb, not playing a ticking time bomb game.

2. BLM does not out-sustain MNK, DRG, or NIN on average. i120 melee out-sustains i130 BLM right now. If you want to go theoretical and assume no BRD playing songs at all over 10 minutes then yes BLM will be closer but that's not realistic.

[Akiza]

I know this is from the first page but ...



1. It's not 10-15 DPS in FCoB, it can be much, much more, 50+ easily. While insignificant in a group whose overall DPS is fine for the content, it was harder to bear back in lower gear, and even now it's a liability in T13 for many groups still progressing (and was a hell of a liability in T13 in the initial few weeks I'll tell you this). Also no, BLM dealing with movement is part of their job and their difficulty; SMN running out of MP is not in their design, or at least, it doesn't fit in their design due to their low-end numbers.

SMN MP management is supposed to be about not playing dumb, not playing a ticking time bomb game.2. BLM does not out-sustain MNK, DRG, or NIN on average. i120 melee out-sustains i130 BLM right now. If you want to go theoretical and assume no BRD playing songs at all over 10 minutes then yes BLM will be closer but that's not realistic.

It's not about playing dumb it's about keeping up DPS with other classes so our raid doesn't wipe on DPS checks. Progression Statics are simply not taking Summoners and opting to maintain the optimal static of BLM, NIN, MNK/DRG and Bard.

[Donjo]

I know this is from the first page but ...



1. It's not 10-15 DPS in FCoB, it can be much, much more, 50+ easily. While insignificant in a group whose overall DPS is fine for the content, it was harder to bear back in lower gear, and even now it's a liability in T13 for many groups still progressing (and was a hell of a liability in T13 in the initial few weeks I'll tell you this). Also no, BLM dealing with movement is part of their job and their difficulty; SMN running out of MP is not in their design, or at least, it doesn't fit in their design due to their low-end numbers.

SMN MP management is supposed to be about not playing dumb, not playing a ticking time bomb game.

2. BLM does not out-sustain MNK, DRG, or NIN on average. i120 melee out-sustains i130 BLM right now. If you want to go theoretical and assume no BRD playing songs at all over 10 minutes then yes BLM will be closer but that's not realistic.

BLMs outsustain everybody. They can literally sit there and turret forever. What part of that don't you understand? Once their DPS plateaus, it stays there forever. Every other DPS class will run out of their resource and plummet at that point. This isn't about who makes the higher numbers, it's about who can fight at maximum potential for the longest. That's what sustain is. BLM will always win that fight. For every other class, limited resources is something they're forced to play around. This is by design.

Also, numbers. Numbers, numbers, numbers. I would like to see irrefutable proof that SMN numbers are actually as low as people think they are. We can't trust parsers; they're only simulating DOTs and cannot see the true amount of damage being dealt. We can't trust "we hit enrage with a SMN in the group"; that's anecdotal. We can't trust "the SMN ran out of MP" unless it happens significantly before any other class runs out of resource(a minute or more before).

We can't trust the numbers. So, we have to examine it in terms of MP and the damage dealt by Spells which are not Dots. Thankfully, the primary determinant of how fast a SMN runs out of MP is their ratio of Energy Drain to Fester. This can be tracked. We can thus try to answer the following questions, assuming that we are dealing with a SMN who is playing optimally in terms of both damage and MP saving, ie. avoidance of Ruin II, not using Miasma II on a single target, Aetherflow is used on cooldown with zero wasted stacks, etc.

1. How fast does a SMN run out of MP if 3 Festers are used every Aetherflow?
2. What about 1 Energy Drain Per Aetherflow? How much potential damage is lost by doing this?
3. 2 Energy Drains?
4. 3 Energy Drains?
5. Using X-Ethers instead of X-Potions of Intelligence. How much DPS does that cost?
6. What about using Piety food instead of Crit and/or Det food? I know they can't get the full benefit of the highest Piety food, but it's still an increase in max MP.

If a SMN can go full tilt for at least 4 minutes of completely uninterrupted optimal DPS using any of these conditions, they're not running out of MP too quickly. Of course, nobody wants to do number 4. I'd wager that the amount of damage lost from least to greatest goes 1 -> 6 -> 5 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4.

[ChazNatlo]

If a SMN can go full tilt for at least 4 minutes of completely uninterrupted optimal DPS using any of these conditions, they're not running out of MP too quickly. Of course, nobody wants to do number 4. I'd wager that the amount of damage lost from least to greatest goes 1 -> 6 -> 5 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4.

For reference, what is your qualification for optimal DPS? I'm not arguing with you, but that clarification would be helpful for dealing with arguments ahead of time. Many seem to argue that using ED instead of Fester is suboptimal DPS.

[Donjo]

For reference, what is your qualification for optimal DPS? I'm not arguing with you, but that clarification would be helpful for dealing with arguments ahead of time. Many seem to argue that using ED instead of Fester is suboptimal DPS.

Optimal DPS would include using Fester whenever possible, unless you've put yourself under a criteria that says to use Energy Drain X number of times per Aetherflow(condition 2, 3, or 4).

Using only Fester will lead to OOM more quickly, but you'll have more DPS during that duration. Using Energy Drain would allow you to fight for longer. I don't think any concrete testing has been done to determine whether or not the lower damage over a longer duration ends up being stronger than the higher damage for a shorter duration. I wonder if I might be able to steal one of the members of my FC who are actually good at SMN for a half hour and get some tentative findings

[Sleigh]

BLMs outsustain everybody. They can literally sit there and turret forever. What part of that don't you understand?

The part where that's relevant in FFXIV, compared to anyone but SMN.

If you want to define "best sustained DPS" as fighting forever with no breaks and no Army's Paeon, okay, BLM wins, but that's just strange. Only SMN will have resource issues in real fights, it's in conflict with the BRD song meta.

Also, numbers. Numbers, numbers, numbers. I would like to see irrefutable proof that SMN numbers are actually as low as people think they are. We can't trust parsers; they're only simulating DOTs and cannot see the true amount of damage being dealt. We can't trust "we hit enrage with a SMN in the group"; that's anecdotal. We can't trust "the SMN ran out of MP" unless it happens significantly before any other class runs out of resource(a minute or more before).

ACT's actually pretty accurate with SMN. It takes your damage from non-DoTs and normalizes it into DoT damage multiplied by crit rate to get a very close average of what each DoT tick will do. It ends up very close to what your actual damage is, unless you just get no crits or an insane amount of crits (unlikely with so many ticks).

[Donjo]

The part where that's relevant in FFXIV, compared to anyone but SMN.

If you want to define sustained DPS as fighting forever with no breaks and no Army's Paeon, that's just strange. Only SMN will have resource issues, it's in conflict with the BRD song meta.

There are parties out there that don't have Bards. There are successful parties out there who don't have Bards. Even a singing Bard will run out of MP, though. Bards do not equal infinite resources. Meanwhile, the BLM will still be fighting at maximum capacity.

[Viridiana]

There are parties out there that don't have Bards. There are successful parties out there who don't have Bards. Even a singing Bard will run out of MP, though. Bards do not equal infinite resources. Meanwhile, the BLM will still be fighting at maximum capacity.

Actually, a BRD pretty much does mean you get infinite resources. A BRD singing Paeon adds enough TP to a party to ensure they never run out if played correctly. That's why SMN never gets Ballad.

[Gardes]

It's not about playing dumb it's about keeping up DPS with other classes so our raid doesn't wipe on DPS checks. Progression Statics are simply not taking Summoners and opting to maintain the optimal static of BLM, NIN, MNK/DRG and Bard.

You can beat both t10 and t11 with 2 ha weapon dps and 2 soldiery weapon (one of them the smn) by at least 40 seconds from enrage. Dunno about t12 and 13 cause we arent on i115 weapon or below anymore but I dont see how smn is a liability in dps checks when everyone has the required gear and performing as best as they can be. Havent seen too much of t13 though.