I fear for Summoner

[Akiza]

What your talking about is effect of not being able to use Fester when you wish, in order to maintain a high dps output. Fester is a relatively finite nuke due to Aetherflows inconsistant availability to the user after 1.30m (if you pre-stocked Aetherflow before the fight). Compared to BLM's each Fire 3 proc/ Thunder 3 thundercloud proc hits for the equivalent of a Fester,so it's no suprise that they can claw their dps back up with procs. Now, compare the SMN nuke resource system to the top dps this tier -- MNK/NIN. MNKs need only keep up their GL (greased Lightning stacks) and they're fine, which is possible on all of the current turns, and so they can maintain their high output for any given FCoB encounter. NINs, like SMNs, have the 'problem' too of having to wait for a nuke with their resource system (ninjutsu), however, they, like the MNK, have a 'cheat' ability to allow them to use their nuke if perfect balance/ kassatsu is up, allowing them to continue thier dps climb, only hindered by fight mechancics and non-crits on their rotation.

SMNs have 2 abilities that centre around their nuke resource system; 1 is good (i.e Fester), but is needed more than it is readily available, in order to maintain competitive dps, and the other (Energy Drain) is not an alternate nuke and gives too little mp with 1 use to be worthwhile. That's the problem.

Energy Drain is not a nuke it does little dps compared to Fester and gives too little mp. The only nukes that Summoner has are Fester and Enkindle which is on a 300s and hits as hard as Fester. A simple slolution to make the Summoner competitive is to reduce the cd on Enkindke to 120s.

[Asheilin]

Summoner, isn't a summoner as most of the FF series fans expected; that is where most of the animosity comes from. When I play wow, I main a warlock; though not the dot central skillset as it isn't as useful in any type of game play except PVP. I enjoyed summoner for a while here, because of that fact. However, hitting 50, playing it; I realized it really failed as a summoner because even micromanaging the pet the feel of summons was absent. Summons shouldn't be the static pet class; it works alright for sch because they're a healer.

Summoners should be blowing a CD to SUMMON their nuke (ie only out for the mana available), have skills that can be utilized, and after summoning using Enkindle saps their energy and utilizes their full strength skill, then de summons.

on fly thought; Mana used during summon phases of play; high tp cost dots that do average damage but gives mana back. the summon spells share a CD (60s or so), Enkindle has a 300-400sCD. Keep Ruin/Ruin II as mp spamable dps but the summons do the most damage. Aetherflow for Fester/bane (as that will build up MP fast as they affect dots) change the summoner job skill that buffs their pet for a short time to garuda's dot extender and give her something else...ie evasion buff.
This also enables summoners to get ALL Egi (though I wish they all looked as good as Ifrit egi if they cant be like their actual primal) and its up to the summoner which pet they use.

[Orrias]

Energy Drain is not a nuke it does little dps compared to Fester and gives too little mp. The only nukes that Summoner has are Fester and Enkindle which is on a 300s and hits as hard as Fester. A simple slolution to make the Summoner competitive is to reduce the cd on Enkindke to 120s.

I said Energy Drain is not an "alternative" for a nuke. At some point you're going to need mana as the fight drawns on. You can either use Energy Drain or MP pots (which are on a 5 min CD), else you'll be out of mana, if you're trying to get in as much into your GCD's as possible/ have had to rez someone. I'm saying that Energy Drain needs to needs a higher potency for it to be used w/o such a dps loss.

Lowering the CD on Enkindle isn't such a bad idea tbh, however, it does not change the fact that Aetherflow needs re-working.

[Brianmj]

I don't like it when people suggest outrageous things that would affect SMN's a lot, but the job is basically on the verge of becoming extinct because it's not worth bringing when you can find a damn melee or change to BLM for better overall damage. I feel like I'm holding back my group by playing SMN. That's how bad it is. No matter how I do, I'll be slightly higher than my static BRD dps, when I don't even ress or virus much. I give E4E sometimes, but that's what healers are doing right now. What's the point of playing this class anymore when I have to put in so much effort than a BLM? High skill play, but low reward.

This is it. Too much weight being given to voices of statics. How and when did it become the thing for statics to decide the direction of a job? The most tangible example of this is Dragoon. People complained that an equally geared Mnk would out damage a Drg and that mnks and nins were being chosen over Drgs. If there was something inherently wrong with the job that it couldn't meet dps checks, then I would be more sympathetic to their buff. Maybe their weak magic defense needed to be tweaked. But because Dragoons didn't "bring any utility", and was slightly weaker than MNK, that it needed to be passed over? JUST TAKE ANY JOB! Didn't Yoshida say all fights were able to be done with any job combination? Look, T13 cleared without a bard!

[Akiza]

The problem is the clash between the how the developer wants the game to be played and how players want to play the game. Players created the Holy Trinity and the Developers continue to use it. Statics decide what jobs are viable not developers and right now statics have decided that Summoners are worthless and won't take them into FCOB. The same thing happened with the WoW Warlock during Cataclysm.

[Brianmj]

The problem is the clash between the how the developer wants the game to be played and how players want to play the game. Players created the Holy Trinity and the Developers continue to use it. Statics decide what jobs are viable not developers and right now statics have decided that Summoners are worthless and won't take them into FCOB. The same thing happened with the WoW Warlock during Cataclysm.

I'd like to say there is a clash between between endgame statics and everyone else, but I can't speak for others. I love Summoner the way it is now; it's currently the only dps job that appeals to me. If little tweaks here and there are warranted to make it no longer "worthless", then fine. If the job needs to be tampered with, such as redefining Tri-Disaster, then we have a problem. If it's at the point where the job needs to overhauled into a "controller class", that's what you've suggested in another thread, then no thank you!

[Ceodore]

I can't begin to sympathize with the troubles of Summoners. I have to ask though, because I see a lot of complaints about the MP pool and Spell Speed, a new set of 110 trinkets are about to be added. Trinkets when HQ already start out with 2 stats (assuming this is the same as the ilvl 90 crafted trinkets), your main, and a supporting stats. So that's Intelligence + any one of the other stats such as Piety, Spell Speed, Determination, Crit Rate, and Accuracy. So, with 5 slots to reach cap on one or two of these stats, couldn't you technically mend this issue? Of these stats, I'd think Determination, Crit Rate, and Piety seem like the big sought after stats for summoner.

[Skeith-Adeline]

SMNs just don't exactly fit what a SMN is. Their pets surely do produce DPS, but they are left on their own and almost 0 thought has to be placed on them once they are summoned. SMNs feel like Epidemologists with pets.

I'm greatly against SMNs having infinite resources, but the class in general needs a reworking. The Pet should be the focus of their DPS. Have Pets utilize attack combinations so that the SMN must focus on DoTs and SMNs at once. Sounds like more issues, but increasing the pets DPS significantly and reducing general ability damage output should make up for the attention needed.

[Judge_Xero]

Summoner class in its play style atm is fine and most of the threads saying its not summonery enough are fairly silly.

Having Int and Magic Damage have a bigger roll in DoT damage for SMN would be a pretty nice buff.

Definitely this. Some people are just blowing it out of proportion on SMNs position in endgame.
When it was doing competitive damage in the previous coils it's utility was not in question. Now that it's 10-15% behind in damage (@i131), all of a sudden it doesn't bring anything to the table?

SMN is still great in FCOB since it's geared for i118 but it will need adjustment for the next set of endgame. (Unless all the fights have extreme multidotting)

[Akiza]

Definitely this. Some people are just blowing it out of proportion on SMNs position in endgame.
When it was doing competitive damage in the previous coils it's utility was not in question. Now that it's 10-15% behind in damage (@i131), all of a sudden it doesn't bring anything to the table?

SMN is still great in FCOB since it's geared for i118 but it will need adjustment for the next set of endgame. (Unless all the fights have extreme multidotting)

Summoner is still great in FCOB tell that to statics that won't take them. The problem is it's more optimal to take a Black Mage over a Summoner because it makes progression easier. It's the problem WoW had with Warlock it was fine but poorly optimized for intense raiding content.