I fear for Summoner

[Orrias]

Summoner as a sustained dps is a myth that players perpetuate. In long fights the Summoners damage starts off high then declines over time because of the diminishing returns built into a DoT dps. The Summoner has the same problems that the WoW Warlock has it has decent damage but can't keep up with other dps classes in high end raiding because their damage declines over the course of long fights. DoT classes best specialize in crowd control and they are also great when combined with restorative buffer like the Scholar but as a dps they suffer from the power creep, stat scaling and declining damage over time.

"Summoners damage starts off high then declines over time because of the diminishing returns built into a DoT dps"...

What..!

Your DoTs tick at the same rate they do at the start of a fight...

If you even play as a SMN, then you'll realise that the reason why your dps "diminishes" after a certain period, is because of (1) a phase transition where DoTs haven't been applied for a boss 'jump', or DoTs do not tick during the 'jump', (2) the mob(s) that are available die too quickly for you to full DoT AND get a reasonable amount of ticks on, and (3) the most important, FESTER -- w/o your nuke (on-hand), you're relying solely on all of your DoT ticks every 3 seconds + Ruin I spam/ Ruin II GCD filler/ pet buffs/ pet AoE to give some spike to your dps.

Both BRD and SMN do high initial burst due to unloading CD's. Whereas the BRD starts intially very high, and then drops immediately to a much lesser plateau with occasional small spikes of dps (due to CD's/ proc luck).

SMN on the other hand starts high, and continues to remain not too far below the initial pull dps until their Aetherflow stacks are burnt out, and they can no longer Fester as and when they wish, because Aetherflow is on CD. Fester is a much higher nuke/ spike than anything a BRD has to offer.

Compare that graphically to melee/ BLM, and you can quite clearly see that the problem is the inefficiency of Aethflow availablity to SMN, in order to remain competitive, whilst at the same time it is also the lynch pin of mp regen/ returns, because Energy Drain (with it's current potency) is not a viable alternate to Fester because of its poor mp returns (e.g. all 3 Aetherflow stacks are need to get enough mp back after death in order to be able to get your pet back up, and have adequate mp left for DoT'ing there after).

[Havenchild]

Summoner class in its play style atm is fine and most of the threads saying its not summonery enough are fairly silly.

However, the class deserves QoL tweaks especially a tool for recovering MP that does not decisively impair your DPS in exchange. Either that or some harsh MP tweaks to some skills is needed. Or they could work on some of the formulas regarding DoT damage. Having Int and Magic Damage have a bigger roll in DoT damage for SMN would be a pretty nice buff.

[Brianmj]

What it really boils down to is this: play what you enjoy. I play on PS4 so I can't parse my DPS unless someone else is doing it for me, but I know this: I kick a$$ in all the content that I'm familiar with (can farm everything up to T9), I stay alive, help meet DPS checks, raise dead players when healers are busy, and keep virus and E4E up as much as possible, and I have fun doing it.

This is nice. Summoner is fun but a lot of that is due to how Arcanist functions. It's just too many people, in proposing fixes for the job, have suggested removing the Arcanist base, the essence of Summoner, and replacing it with whatever they concoct. That's the upsetting part. I know the chance for a major overhaul are small, but still...

[SinSilverwing]

I originally wanted to play smn but ended up playing a blm because they felt the closest to their past incarnations to me. (But I did level all the DoM jobs just because they all appeal to me in some form.) The look of the egi\\'s wasn\\'t what turned me off from it it was the dot aspect of smn that did.

I have recently taken to playing smn in my down time between grinding out my relic for the blm and while doing tome runs (I hate the fact that blm has been forced into aoe sonic zooms. Speed runs just don\\'t appeal to me and people assume that\\'s what I want to do when I\\'m on my blm). And the smn class has grown on me. I like it how it is though I\\'d like one that actually plays out on where 75% of the damage give or take comes from the summons. I can happily play it how it is.

[SinSilverwing]

Continuation cause phone and forums are dumb.

In short. My preconceptions about smn turned me off from it. After playing end game with it. I found I love it all the same even if it wasn\\'t what I expected.

Though the gear issue needs to be fixed. Give smn pie or something else to help out damage or their mana pool. SS is useless and our pets should not give us that as a buff when they crit.

[Akiza]

"Summoners damage starts off high then declines over time because of the diminishing returns built into a DoT dps"...

What..!

Your DoTs tick at the same rate they do at the start of a fight...

If you even play as a SMN, then you'll realise that the reason why your dps "diminishes" after a certain period, is because of (1) a phase transition where DoTs haven't been applied for a boss 'jump', or DoTs do not tick during the 'jump', (2) the mob(s) that are available die too quickly for you to full DoT AND get a reasonable amount of ticks on, and (3) the most important, FESTER. With your nuke (on-hand), you're relying solely on all of your DoT ticks every 3 seconds + Ruin I spam/ Ruin II GCD filler/ pet buffs/ pet AoE to give some spike to your dps.Both BRD and SMN do high initial burst due to unloading CD's. Whereas the BRD starts intially very high, and then drops immediately to a much lesser plateau with occasional small spikes of dps (due to CD's/ proc luck).

A SMN starts high, and continues to remain not too far below the initial pull dps until their Aetherflow stacks are burnt out, and they can no longer Fester as and when they wish, because Aetherflow is on CD. Fester is a much higher nuke/ spike than anything a BRD has to offer.Compare that graphically to melee/ BLM, and you can quite clearly see that the problem is the inefficiency of Aethflow availablity to SMN, in order to remain competitive, whilst at the same time it is also the lynch pin of mp regen/ returns, because Energy Drain (with it's current potency) is not a viable alternate to Fester because of its poor mp returns (e.g. all 3 Aetherflow stacks are need to get enough mp back after death in order to be able to get your pet back up, and have adequate mp left for DoT'ing there after).

Usinga dps simulator shows that the Summoner dps starts high for the initial rotation RS, X Pot of Int, Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Miasma II, Potent Poisoning Pot, Contagion, SC Shadowflare, Ruin II, Rouse, Ruin II Spur, Enkindle, Ruin II, Fester, Ruin, Ruin II, Ariel Slash and Fester then afterwards it sharply drops and plateaus around its minimum never to recover even when the Aetherflow stacks are back up. The same thing is showing up in dps simulators for Summoner as the length of the fight increases the Summoner has diminishing returns for their effort. If SE took Fester off of Aetherflow and gave it a 6 sec cd then Summoner's would out class every other dps if they increase DoT damage then we are invincible in PvP so it makes it nightmare to balance the Summoner around other dps jobs.

[ChazNatlo]

Okay, now I gotcha. at the start of a fight, all your increased damage cooldowns are up. After the initial burn, it is very infrequent that the cooldowns overlap, thus a drop in DPS after the initial pull.

I have heard that because of casting times and a significance of DoTs, we get more out of damage increasing skills and items than say, a BLM.

[ZhycranaDranix]

Drops a x pot
States dps drops throughout the fight

Do you see this ?
Of course your DPS is going to drop throughout the fight on a pot that last no longer than10-15 ticks ?
Sigh

[Wizarus]

Drops a x pot
States dps drops throughout the fight

Do you see this ?
Of course your DPS is going to drop throughout the fight on a pot that last no longer than10-15 ticks ?
Sigh

Then you have to take into consideration that even with that initial burst of RS and INT pot and Garuda's ability to "extend" it, SMN DPS is still slightly above Bards on average, and thats only because they sing, while having no type of unique utility like that outside of the extremely situational battle raise. This means that SMN is literally hanging on that initial burst and praying that the fight doesn't drag on.

[Orrias]

Usinga dps simulator shows that the Summoner dps starts high for the initial rotation RS, X Pot of Int, Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Miasma II, Potent Poisoning Pot, Contagion, SC Shadowflare, Ruin II, Rouse, Ruin II Spur, Enkindle, Ruin II, Fester, Ruin, Ruin II, Ariel Slash and Fester then afterwards it sharply drops and plateaus around its minimum never to recover even when the Aetherflow stacks are back up. The same thing is showing up in dps simulators for Summoner as the length of the fight increases the Summoner has diminishing returns for their effort. If SE took Fester off of Aetherflow and gave it a 6 sec cd then Summoner's would out class every other dps if they increase DoT damage then we are invincible in PvP so it makes it nightmare to balance the Summoner around other dps jobs.

What your talking about is effect of not being able to use Fester when you wish, in order to maintain a high dps output. Fester is a relatively finite nuke due to Aetherflows inconsistant availability to the user after 1.30m (if you pre-stocked Aetherflow before the fight). Compared to BLM's each Fire 3 proc/ Thunder 3 thundercloud proc hits for the equivalent of a Fester, so it's no suprise that they can claw their dps back up with procs. Now, compare the SMN nuke resource system to the top dps this tier -- MNK/NIN. MNKs need only keep up their GL (greased Lightning stacks) and they're fine, which is possible on all of the current turns, and so they can maintain their high output for any given FCoB encounter. NINs, like SMNs, have the 'problem' too of having to wait for a nuke with their resource system (ninjutsu), however, they, like the MNK, have a 'cheat' ability to allow them to use their nuke if perfect balance/ kassatsu is up, allowing them to continue thier dps climb, only hindered by fight mechancics and non-crits on their rotation.

SMNs have 2 abilities that centre around their nuke resource system; 1 is good (i.e Fester), but is needed more than it is readily available, in order to maintain competitive dps, and the other (Energy Drain) is not an alternate nuke and gives too little mp with 1 use to be worthwhile. That's the problem.