I fear for Summoner

[Akiza]

Summoner as a sustained dps is a myth that players perpetuate. In long fights the Summoners damage starts off high then declines over time because of the diminishing returns built into a DoT dps. The Summoner has the same problems that the WoW Warlock has it has decent damage but can't keep up with other dps classes in high end raiding because their damage declines over the course of long fights. DoT classes best specialize in crowd control and they are also great when combined with restorative buffer like the Scholar but as a dps they suffer from the power creep, stat scaling and declining damage over time.

[Orrias]

Summoner as a sustained dps is a myth that players perpetuate. In long fights the Summoners damage starts off high then declines over time because of the diminishing returns built into a DoT dps. The Summoner has the same problems that the WoW Warlock has it has decent damage but can't keep up with other dps classes in high end raiding because their damage declines over the course of long fights. DoT classes best specialize in crowd control and they are also great when combined with restorative buffer like the Scholar but as a dps they suffer from the power creep, stat scaling and declining damage over time.

"Summoners damage starts off high then declines over time because of the diminishing returns built into a DoT dps"...

What..!

Your DoTs tick at the same rate they do at the start of a fight...

If you even play as a SMN, then you'll realise that the reason why your dps "diminishes" after a certain period, is because of (1) a phase transition where DoTs haven't been applied for a boss 'jump', or DoTs do not tick during the 'jump', (2) the mob(s) that are available die too quickly for you to full DoT AND get a reasonable amount of ticks on, and (3) the most important, FESTER -- w/o your nuke (on-hand), you're relying solely on all of your DoT ticks every 3 seconds + Ruin I spam/ Ruin II GCD filler/ pet buffs/ pet AoE to give some spike to your dps.

Both BRD and SMN do high initial burst due to unloading CD's. Whereas the BRD starts intially very high, and then drops immediately to a much lesser plateau with occasional small spikes of dps (due to CD's/ proc luck).

SMN on the other hand starts high, and continues to remain not too far below the initial pull dps until their Aetherflow stacks are burnt out, and they can no longer Fester as and when they wish, because Aetherflow is on CD. Fester is a much higher nuke/ spike than anything a BRD has to offer.

Compare that graphically to melee/ BLM, and you can quite clearly see that the problem is the inefficiency of Aethflow availablity to SMN, in order to remain competitive, whilst at the same time it is also the lynch pin of mp regen/ returns, because Energy Drain (with it's current potency) is not a viable alternate to Fester because of its poor mp returns (e.g. all 3 Aetherflow stacks are need to get enough mp back after death in order to be able to get your pet back up, and have adequate mp left for DoT'ing there after).

[Akiza]

"Summoners damage starts off high then declines over time because of the diminishing returns built into a DoT dps"...

What..!

Your DoTs tick at the same rate they do at the start of a fight...

If you even play as a SMN, then you'll realise that the reason why your dps "diminishes" after a certain period, is because of (1) a phase transition where DoTs haven't been applied for a boss 'jump', or DoTs do not tick during the 'jump', (2) the mob(s) that are available die too quickly for you to full DoT AND get a reasonable amount of ticks on, and (3) the most important, FESTER. With your nuke (on-hand), you're relying solely on all of your DoT ticks every 3 seconds + Ruin I spam/ Ruin II GCD filler/ pet buffs/ pet AoE to give some spike to your dps.Both BRD and SMN do high initial burst due to unloading CD's. Whereas the BRD starts intially very high, and then drops immediately to a much lesser plateau with occasional small spikes of dps (due to CD's/ proc luck).

A SMN starts high, and continues to remain not too far below the initial pull dps until their Aetherflow stacks are burnt out, and they can no longer Fester as and when they wish, because Aetherflow is on CD. Fester is a much higher nuke/ spike than anything a BRD has to offer.Compare that graphically to melee/ BLM, and you can quite clearly see that the problem is the inefficiency of Aethflow availablity to SMN, in order to remain competitive, whilst at the same time it is also the lynch pin of mp regen/ returns, because Energy Drain (with it's current potency) is not a viable alternate to Fester because of its poor mp returns (e.g. all 3 Aetherflow stacks are need to get enough mp back after death in order to be able to get your pet back up, and have adequate mp left for DoT'ing there after).

Usinga dps simulator shows that the Summoner dps starts high for the initial rotation RS, X Pot of Int, Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Miasma II, Potent Poisoning Pot, Contagion, SC Shadowflare, Ruin II, Rouse, Ruin II Spur, Enkindle, Ruin II, Fester, Ruin, Ruin II, Ariel Slash and Fester then afterwards it sharply drops and plateaus around its minimum never to recover even when the Aetherflow stacks are back up. The same thing is showing up in dps simulators for Summoner as the length of the fight increases the Summoner has diminishing returns for their effort. If SE took Fester off of Aetherflow and gave it a 6 sec cd then Summoner's would out class every other dps if they increase DoT damage then we are invincible in PvP so it makes it nightmare to balance the Summoner around other dps jobs.

[Orrias]

Usinga dps simulator shows that the Summoner dps starts high for the initial rotation RS, X Pot of Int, Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Miasma II, Potent Poisoning Pot, Contagion, SC Shadowflare, Ruin II, Rouse, Ruin II Spur, Enkindle, Ruin II, Fester, Ruin, Ruin II, Ariel Slash and Fester then afterwards it sharply drops and plateaus around its minimum never to recover even when the Aetherflow stacks are back up. The same thing is showing up in dps simulators for Summoner as the length of the fight increases the Summoner has diminishing returns for their effort. If SE took Fester off of Aetherflow and gave it a 6 sec cd then Summoner's would out class every other dps if they increase DoT damage then we are invincible in PvP so it makes it nightmare to balance the Summoner around other dps jobs.

What your talking about is effect of not being able to use Fester when you wish, in order to maintain a high dps output. Fester is a relatively finite nuke due to Aetherflows inconsistant availability to the user after 1.30m (if you pre-stocked Aetherflow before the fight). Compared to BLM's each Fire 3 proc/ Thunder 3 thundercloud proc hits for the equivalent of a Fester, so it's no suprise that they can claw their dps back up with procs. Now, compare the SMN nuke resource system to the top dps this tier -- MNK/NIN. MNKs need only keep up their GL (greased Lightning stacks) and they're fine, which is possible on all of the current turns, and so they can maintain their high output for any given FCoB encounter. NINs, like SMNs, have the 'problem' too of having to wait for a nuke with their resource system (ninjutsu), however, they, like the MNK, have a 'cheat' ability to allow them to use their nuke if perfect balance/ kassatsu is up, allowing them to continue thier dps climb, only hindered by fight mechancics and non-crits on their rotation.

SMNs have 2 abilities that centre around their nuke resource system; 1 is good (i.e Fester), but is needed more than it is readily available, in order to maintain competitive dps, and the other (Energy Drain) is not an alternate nuke and gives too little mp with 1 use to be worthwhile. That's the problem.

[Akiza]

What your talking about is effect of not being able to use Fester when you wish, in order to maintain a high dps output. Fester is a relatively finite nuke due to Aetherflows inconsistant availability to the user after 1.30m (if you pre-stocked Aetherflow before the fight). Compared to BLM's each Fire 3 proc/ Thunder 3 thundercloud proc hits for the equivalent of a Fester,so it's no suprise that they can claw their dps back up with procs. Now, compare the SMN nuke resource system to the top dps this tier -- MNK/NIN. MNKs need only keep up their GL (greased Lightning stacks) and they're fine, which is possible on all of the current turns, and so they can maintain their high output for any given FCoB encounter. NINs, like SMNs, have the 'problem' too of having to wait for a nuke with their resource system (ninjutsu), however, they, like the MNK, have a 'cheat' ability to allow them to use their nuke if perfect balance/ kassatsu is up, allowing them to continue thier dps climb, only hindered by fight mechancics and non-crits on their rotation.

SMNs have 2 abilities that centre around their nuke resource system; 1 is good (i.e Fester), but is needed more than it is readily available, in order to maintain competitive dps, and the other (Energy Drain) is not an alternate nuke and gives too little mp with 1 use to be worthwhile. That's the problem.

Energy Drain is not a nuke it does little dps compared to Fester and gives too little mp. The only nukes that Summoner has are Fester and Enkindle which is on a 300s and hits as hard as Fester. A simple slolution to make the Summoner competitive is to reduce the cd on Enkindke to 120s.

[Orrias]

I’m worried about Summoner because far too many are displeased with it at the moment. I’m sure you’ve heard about the job’s mana issues in FCoB, the displeasure with the incredible amount of spell speed being forced on the job since patch 2.4, or the fact that Summoner doesn’t feel “summoner-ry” enough. On the heels of Dragoon “needing” to be fixed, people that main Summoner have complained so loud that it has choked all attention. And in reading these complaints, some of the proposals to fix Summoner have the job warped beyond recognition. I fear for the job in that Square will act on these complaints and rework Summoner into something that looks and functions completely different from what it is now.


I’ve often read that the Summoner resembles WoW’s Warlock class. I never played WoW long enough explore their classes, but if this is true, then kudos to Blizzard for designing such a beautiful class. Summoner is just different from the other jobs, its damage isn’t upfront and direct like Black Mage or Monk. It’s dots ticking! I have never played a job like this before, the only other MMORPGs played for an extensive amount of time being FF11 and PSO[ver 1,2](yes it’s an MMO). Maybe RDM since I had to maintain blind and dia. But killing a monster via diseases in conjunction to controlling a pet makes for a very sexy combination. On paper it sound weird, but Arcanist does lore makes it work. Through the use of Grimoires and arcane mathematics aether is manipulated into debilitating spells, diseases. That is beautiful! And how it’s implemented in game, “bio - your lungs are failing causing damage over time”, “disease - motor functions are inhibited” - this is just wonderful. I know those are just captions, but still, good job, Square.

I guess you could say I fell in love with Arcanist. Summoner is just the cherry on top. However, people that main Summoner, and are part of statics, and use parsers or are grouped with people that use parsers are unhappy. People that hold a hold onto a nostalgic view of Summoner are not happy. If you’ve read this forum, the general forums, or even reddit.com/r/ffxiv you’ve had to seen people voicing displeasure with job - not only with it DPS output, but how it functions. Being a “dot class” has bothered many people and they’ve become very loud with their displeasure. “Summoner needs to be fixed” is the line. And what those fixes entail range from removing the Energy Drain aetherflow stack requirement to removing Summoner’s base class, Arcanist, and reworking Summoner into a “traditional Summoner”. What’s a traditional Summoner? The multitude of people that proposed that can answer that question. But one thing is clear from their suggestions, Arcanist is not part of the picture. The base, which makes Summoner what it is now, has no place in the game. Screw the people that actually like playing a dot class. “Get rid of Arcanist, and turn Summoner into a traditional Summoner”, this is what they say. This is unfortunate. I fear for Summoner. I fear Square acting on people’s displeasure and doing something radical with the job. With 3.0 a few months away, that seems like the most likely point where any job changes, if they happen, will take place. It’s Square’s silence on the matter that’s most disturbing. While I don’t think Summoner will be changed in a any fundamental way, I really do hope that Square knows that there are people out there that love Summoner the way it is.

Is there anyone here with the same sentiments?

[Problems w/ SMNs in general]

- They're a lot like WoW's Warlock (e.g. small sized pets/ DoT's), and not what FF11 players are used to.

- They're trait bound to ACN, along with SCH.



[Problems for SMNs that raid]

- General mana regen is poor.

- On-demand mp returns are meager, and not enough when your mana is low.

- Balancing the Job around Aetherflow is a bad idea (i.e. it's also bound to SCHs, which means SMNs get stuck with 3 stacks, which isn't enough to be competitive past the 1.30 minute mark w/o adds)


With no feedback from the Dev team, it's pretty much pointless to point to possible solutions, as they could just be waiting to do a complete overhaul of the Job come 3.0.

However, with other Jobs that have received buffs thus far, we've only seen tweaks to potencies/ positional requirements, which could only mean that either Fester, or more likely, Energy Drain would be candidates for increases to their potencies.


.

[Hurlstone]

I adore the Summoner class, have done since the start of my time in Eorzea. It combines two of my favorite aspects of DPS'ing, DoT's and pet management. Having played as a Summoner for a bit during my FFXI days (Many years ago, so the Job has probably changed since then), I was delightfully surprised to find that its FFXIV cousin did not just take a back seat to the Egi, and that I would not have to be forced into simply healing under a different name. I love how we do not just summon a being and let it fight, we have our own rotation and utility to bring to the fight.

I am not saying Summon is a 100% perfect class (Is any class in any MMO truly perfect?). It certainly sounds like the raiders need a buff, and I for one really hope they improve how we use our Egi in the future. Specifically, making Ifrit and future DPS-based Egi viable choices compared to just Garuda and giving them a little extra to do during battle. That being said, a class should only be re-worked from the ground up if the gameplay is truly and utterly broken beyond repair. Summoner is nowhere near that level, and given as the major complaint seems to be simply one of aesthetics, I am quite confident to say it will never be changed in way that it becomes unrecognizable, at least in a seriousness way.

I must admit, I personally do not understand the whole 'Its not a true Summoner!' argument. Firstly, just what is the definition of a 'Summoner?' exactly? Secondly, this is not FFXI, FFVI etc. This game should not try to just carbon copy the past, but rather aim to put its own stamp on these classic roles and make them unique to this game, not any other.

[Kogasan]

I got a ? what is up with all you smn's that are saying smn has an mp issue. If you guys would take the time to learn how to play smn and gear it properly smn would not have any mp issues. So what I suggest is that those who think smn has mp issues really need to go to smn school and learn to play smn instead of complaining about mp issues.

[Scholar-]

I got a ? what is up with all you smn's that are saying smn has an mp issue. If you guys would take the time to learn how to play smn and gear it properly smn would not have any mp issues. So what I suggest is that those who think smn has mp issues really need to go to smn school and learn to play smn instead of complaining about mp issues.

Wrong. If you are playing the job to its maximum potential you will ultimately run out of MP in most FCOB fights, if you are not weaving ur gcds properly to maximize your damage then correct you probably won't run out of MP.

Perhaps you should return to this so called "smn school" and get a bit more understanding of how to maximize your dps.

[ShaolinMike]

I got a ? what is up with all you smn's that are saying smn has an mp issue. If you guys would take the time to learn how to play smn and gear it properly smn would not have any mp issues. So what I suggest is that those who think smn has mp issues really need to go to smn school and learn to play smn instead of complaining about mp issues.

Poor soul. I used to think the same thing....

Then I learned how to truly be a summoner.