Stoneskin II

[Nyalia]

If you're buffing before a pull, SCH SS is just as good as PLD (or non-job) SS. So, if you are in 4-man content as an SCH, there's about a 50% chance that you'll have a second person in the run that can help you stoneskin. Suddenly, instead of one skill with a ~5 second cast time, two people have to cast two spells with ~2.5 second cast times each. SS2 wouldn't speed anything up in that scenario, though it does make it easier. If you had a WHM and a PLD, you still need to wait the ~10 seconds for the WHM to cast all four stoneskins before SS2 came along, slowing everyone down.

If you're doing 8-man content and do not have a WHM, that means you have 2 SCHs. Chances are, you also have 1-2 PLDs. The argument is the same as the above - it isn't really all that much faster to have a single person cast SS2 than to have 3-4 people cast 2-3 SSs each. Back before SS2, having just the WHM cast SS on everyone took a very long time, and since WHM's SS is better than others, you all want the WHM to cast it and not the PLDs or SCHs. So, everyone would have to wait for 8 spells to cast instead of 3. (assuming an average party of WHM, SCH, PLD, WAR).

So, yeah - WHMs needed SS2 more than SCHs did, just because by definition, if you're having the SCH cast SS, chances are high that more other people can also cast it than if you're having the WHM do it. Split work is less work.


Also, for those who are complaining about SS2 due to the number of skills comparison, if you check some wikis like Gamerescape, they show SCH as having 13 Job skills, where WHM only has 5 (every other class also gets 5, except Ninja which gets 6 or 15 depending on how you count). Sure, you could argue that Embrace (selene), Embrace (eos), Fey Light, Fey Illumination, Fey Covenant, Fey Glow, Whispering Dawn, and Silent Dusk shouldn't count as job skills, but they are skills you get by having the SCH job. As far as class skills, ACNs get Sic, Place, Heel, Obey, Steady, Stay, Guard, and Away. That's 7 skills over CNJ, even factoring in SS2. Sure, you can say that all 16 of these skills are really just parts of Summon and Summon II, but how can you argue that they are extensions of Summon/Summon II, but SSII isn't an extension of SS?

[Ghishlain]

I said I'd keep my peace, but I guess I just wanted to make one last hurrah into the thread:

(1) I never thought there would be so much animosity between WHMs and SCHs @.@ We're healing partners, why so much "MEMEMEMMEMEMEMEM" attitude from both sides? It's rather... distressing. As Saseal mentioned back in page 11

I think at this point, there's not much that can be said that will be listened to, from either side x_x

Agree to disagree, ain't much to it. In end, this thread really just needs a lock and/or dev response just to settle all the children down.

(2) How the heck are we at 24 pages and we're not even a cash shop thread? >.> Like, seriously?

....

S-E should sell a consumable that's instantly cast and does a 10% AoE Stoneskin on the user and all party members around them. Charge $0.50 per usage. PROBLEM SOLVED.

*Coughs*

====

Tata /bow

[Roris]

they show SCH as having 13 Job skills, where WHM only has 5 (every other class also gets 5, except Ninja which gets 6 or 15 depending on how you count)

Oh boy, well not counting the obvious pet movement abilities like you've said. Embrace is half what a Physick does and a Physick + Embrace roughly equals what a Cure 2 does. Selene buffs spellspeed and skillspeed and both can't be active at the same time, so it's a Presence of Mind and a slight Huton, and she also gets a silence I guess. Eos has increased healing so it's Divine Seal, a HoT so basically the Medica II regen without the healing part of Medica II itself, and increased magical defense for a short duration so what WHM naturally gets with their Protect trait.

So again, balance.

[SulwynCaliope]

snip

I don't know about your data center but in mine, tanks NEVER buff the party. Some probably have even forgotten that they have protect and SS cross classed. I've always buffed the party on my own because that's part of my job.

I will give you fairy skills might be an extension of our job skills. But Sic, Place, Heel, Obey, Steady, Stay, Guard, and Away? Really? So our fairies should just cast heals and skills stupidly while we have no control over them? That made me facepalm because clearly you have no idea how SCHs heal. And I'm not saying that SSII isn't an extension of SS. Do you agree though that it's also a pretty useless extension of SS in battle? It's ONLY purpose is to speed up the buffing process out of battle which SCHs do partake in too.

[Wildsprite]

Eos has increased healing so it's Divine Seal, a HoT so basically the Medica II regen without the healing part of Medica II itself

If you have her in Sic mode and you time it right she will use that HoT whenver you use Succor so it can be pretty effective

I don't think SCH needs SSII but it would be nice to have a version of our own, if they gave us something similar to Succor that lasted as long as stoneskin without the heal I would be good with that. but again not needed.

in a proper 8 man setup WHM and SCH compliment eachother. sadly I more often end up with a second SCH in the same party in LoA or ST. and more often than not the other SCH is lazy and doesn't actually know the job(often forgetting about his/her fairy) so I'm having to heal for us both. it is an easy job really but you should know it's abilities and shortcomings if you are going to play it.

personally I love both jobs. but I often have to tell people not to treat SCH like a WHM cause they go in spamming Physic and nothing else or they have Cure crossclassed......or even worse they forget their fairy....

[Reimia]

I'd happily share SS2 with Scholars..There might be a time in the future I dust off my own, and I'd hate to have to single cast SS after getting used to being lazy with it :/

[RaquelleAvarosa]

I'm calling SE out on their mishandling of this. What's wrong with that? Or should we just allow SE to implement things in a half assed manner and let it slide because "oh there's more important things to worry about." WHMs fought hard to have this QoL change and were rightly rewarded for their efforts. Why can't SCHs do the same? Because somehow us having the same thing is less worth it?

mis-handling? oh drama mama

SS2 is not SS1, SS2 is a WHM skill and SCHs are not WHMs oh god, just stop.

I don't know about your data center but in mine, tanks NEVER buff the party. Some probably have even forgotten that they have protect and SS cross classed. I've always buffed the party on my own because that's part of my job.

That made me facepalm because clearly you have no idea how SCHs heal. And I'm not saying that SSII isn't an extension of SS. Do you agree though that it's also a pretty useless extension of SS in battle? It's ONLY purpose is to speed up the buffing process out of battle which SCHs do partake in too.

I've just ran a DR with a tank and buffed the party, there, just disproved you.

want to speed up SS buff? get a WHM.

you know whats wrong with this thread? its that you're making it sound like SS is such an fundamental and essential component of SCHs that if SCHs do not buff SS, they're gotta get kicked from the party and they will never ever find a party because a SCH doesn't buff SS and since you're so fixated on the SS AoE buff, please, play a WHM.

Let's just be honest, you wanted the skill because of a perceived convenience, it is not essential to your job and SCHs are not gonna fade into disuse because they don't SS and parties are not gonna call a SCH out for not SS-ing, it is your own choice whether to SS in the unfortunate event that there are no WHM which I find highly unlikely in end game primals and raids.

[Nyalia]

I don't know about your data center but in mine, tanks NEVER buff the party. Some probably have even forgotten that they have protect and SS cross classed. I've always buffed the party on my own because that's part of my job.

I will give you fairy skills might be an extension of our job skills. But Sic, Place, Heel, Obey, Steady, Stay, Guard, and Away? Really? So our fairies should just cast heals and skills stupidly while we have no control over them? That made me facepalm because clearly you have no idea how SCHs heal. And I'm not saying that SSII isn't an extension of SS. Do you agree though that it's also a pretty useless extension of SS in battle? It's ONLY purpose is to speed up the buffing process out of battle which SCHs do partake in too.

Yeah, and I've seen SCHs on my datacenter who heal without a fairy at all. That doesn't say a thing about SCH/WHM balance, only that some people are morons.

To clarify, I'm not saying that SCH is superior to WHM at all, nor that WHM is superior to SCH. They're both useful, and the best parties, to me, are the ones with both an SCH and a WHM. All I'm saying is that SS2 does not change the SCH/WHM balance, and lacking SS2 does not necessarily slow down non-WHM pre-fight buffing speed (providing your PLDs/fellow SCHs aren't morons).

The point about the number of skills thing - there are people on this thread and others who keep saying that you can't give WHM a new skill without giving SCH a new skill, like there's some kind of rule. I'm saying that clearly there isn't, since if you count each action as a separate skill, SCHs clearly have more actions than WHMs. Unless you're saying you never use "place" in a fight? Or "obey?" Or "embrace?" Those are all actions that are used. If you count SS and SSII as different actions, why do you not count "whispering dawn" and "embrace (eos)" as separate actions both available to an SCH?

Honestly, comparing number of actions is stupid and meaningless. The above illustrates why I feel this way.

[SulwynCaliope]

The point about the number of skills thing - there are people on this thread and others who keep saying that you can't give WHM a new skill without giving SCH a new skill, like there's some kind of rule.

I'm not saying that either tbh. My whole argument is that SSII is a Quality of life change. So SE will better the lives of WHMs but not SCHs when both have the same skill? That's all I'm really asking for. For SCHs to be treated fairly in this regard. :/ I'm just sad at how many WHMs are being selfish with regards to this quality of life change.

snip

Can you answer me this. How does shaving off a few extra seconds of pre buff time for an SCH make you so defensive about the whole skill? Clearly this isn't about SSII at all for you. This is WHM vs SCH for you. I've said time and time again that this isn't about WHM vs SCH. The classes are VERY balanced right now as far as I'm concerned and I'm wary of any changes that would break this balance. This is about a difference in a few seconds of pre buff time. Nothing more nothing less.

[Roris]

If you have her in Sic mode and you time it right she will use that HoT whenver you use Succor so it can be pretty effective

I guess you can do that and make a makeshift Medica 2, personally I like everything being on manual so I can do Rouse + Fey Illumination + Whispering Dawn in that order at will and also throw in Covenant.

If you count SS and SSII as different actions, why do you not count "whispering dawn" and "embrace (eos)" as separate actions both available to an SCH?

You have to be aware it's handled that way because of how SCH was tacked on to Arcanist, so they had to move a lot of those utility abilities onto their fairies or else they'd fall short on the healing side, since Arcanist only has 2 healing abilities and one is pet only, I guess 3 if you consider the very minor self healing from Energy Drain.