Rejoice ninjas!

[Aethaeryn]

Positional attacks are just annoying. They don't make dragoon or monk more difficult to play at all. You can hug the line and barely have to move at all for monk and dragoon for most fights in the game. The only issue is when the boss turns a lot for attacks, but that doesn't make it harder to play. Positional attacks are just bad design when they cause a job to really struggle (like DRG with some FCoB stuff right now I guess?).

[Nalien]

The only issue is when the boss turns a lot for attacks, but that doesn't make it harder to play.

Harder is perhaps the wrong word, but that is still something Ninja simply does not have to deal with. Closest it gets is; "Opps, I just applied Dancing Edge when we have a Warrior tank".

Given SE decided Monk and Dragoon should have to suffer mechanics like this, it seems only fair that they beat Ninja, who doesn't have to suffer such mechanics.

inb4 more "i'm on dial up, ninjutsu is hard you guys! believe it!"

[Aethaeryn]

Harder is perhaps the wrong word, but that is still something Ninja simply does not have to deal with. Closest it gets is; "Opps, I just applied Dancing Edge when we have a Warrior tank".

So make drg and mnk not have to deal with it too. I don't even understand why anyone *wants* to have to deal with forced lower dps on fights that force you to be in front or at the side for a big part of the encounter. It's pretty terrible that dragoon can't even get heavy thrust buff or disembowel/chaos thrust without being in the right position. At least monk's positional attacks only drop their damage some rather than gutting their rotation. I don't know, positional stuff has always just been so annoying to me on all games. That's why I jumped right on ninja when it came out. Artificial difficulty in the form of forcing jobs to deal a lot less dps on some encounters is not good design.

[RakaMaimhov]

So make drg and mnk not have to deal with it too.

The positional requirements are part of the feel and lore of the job. BUT (in the case of DRG) the penalty for MISSING those positionals is sub-par DPS, basically a punishment because the tank can't stand still or the thing they are fighting turned to cast a spell on someone. We should do good damage if we miss those and better damage if we nail them, not bad damage if we miss and still sub-par damage even if we nail all positionals and weave all OGCD's perfectly on a completely stationary target while other jobs have movement speed and/or attack speed buffs and little/no positional requirements.

I don't want my positionals taken away, I just want them to be rewarding to maintain instead of punishing to neglect.

[Aethaeryn]

I don't want my positionals taken away, I just want them to be rewarding to maintain instead of punishing to neglect.

I can agree with that. I think that the penalty on DRG for failing to meet positional requirements is way too strict and needs to be addressed. I just don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the way ninja is now. I don't find it difficult now, but the learning curve was definitely much higher and took me a lot more practice than monk or dragoon. I'm still not perfect yet, but I think adding positional requirements (other than DE? I wouldn't be terribly upset about that one because I didn't even realize it wasn't actually flank for like two weeks lol) would make the job more stress than it's worth at this point.

[Coldbrand]

Positional attacks don't make the job harder at all *goes on to describe how it requires constant movement (as a fight should) and putting yourself in danger (the penalty for being tougher than a frail caster/doing more damage)* "Just annoying"? I enjoy requiring situational awareness personally and am bored to death when playing NIN at the mindlessness. I can let my mind drift and really only need to watch the HP bar tick and the colors brighten up. That's what happens to game feel when you eliminate the need to be cognizant of the enemy.

Also you must not play MNK or DRG because "hugging the line" that separates rear and flank is like begging to lose DPS and flow because the slightest turn in the mob or tank, or if anyone moves at all or anyone else gets aggro means you lose.

Enjoy the change to the haptic experience of playing these jobs if you destroy what keeps them engaging. You should check out the 3ds version of Street Fighter, you'd probably love playing Guile.

[Aethaeryn]

Also you must not play MNK or DRG because "hugging the line" that separates rear and flank is like begging to lose DPS and flow because the slightest turn in the mob or tank, or if anyone moves at all or anyone else gets aggro means you lose.

I played DRG through all 2.0 and 2.1, and I've played MNK since then on my lalafell. I cannot think of a single encounter (pre-FCoB, I don't know anything about FCoB yet) where there is movement required by the tank that is not predictable. If you're talking about dungeon farming or something, that's different. Someone else getting agro would make you lose damage even if you weren't hugging the line. I don't get your point here at all.

If you enjoy positional attacks, more power to you. I already said they've always been annoying to me, not that everyone finds them annoying. If you don't have fun on ninja because of the lack of positional attacks, don't play it. That doesn't mean ninja needs to be nerfed into the ground.

[Felessan]

Most of which are predictable by enemy HP%

And moments when boss turns to fire something is predictable by their rotation.
I really don't get why you downplay ninja hardships and not apply the same rules to monk/dragoon.

Mostly for the party, not your individual DPS, though losing 160 potency in ability damage is never nice. Trick Attack is also only every minute, instead of fairly constantly throughout a fight; more chance for the same to happen to a Monk than a Ninja.

In worst case scenario it's 307 potency, not 160 as ninja benefits from the same 10% buff himself. It's around 850 damage or 15 dps for this given minute. Not really something you should ignore.

That's up to SE, not me. Simple fact is that Ninja doesn't suffer from such mechanics nearly as much with a static 20% damage buff and Huton, compared to what Dragoon and Monk have to endure. The three should be balanced with that in mind.

Monk and Dragoon do not have to endure mechanics that requires you to execute precisely key sequences and not just spam the next ability in rotation as everyone else do. And not only execute this sequences but also weave them perfectly into GCD.
And still - monks have higher dps than ninjas.

I enjoy requiring situational awareness personally and am bored to death when playing NIN at the mindlessness. I can let my mind drift and really only need to watch the HP bar tick and the colors brighten up. That's what happens to game feel when you eliminate the need to be cognizant of the enemy.

You are not forced to play NIN class, you know? Having a diversity for different tastes is a good thing, personally I don't like this whole "2 step" thing, I better will concentrate more on execution perfection.

[Nalien]

And still - monks have higher dps than ninjas.

I... Know? All I'm saying is that Monk (and Dragoon) should have higher DPS, because the hardest thing Ninja has to do is not button mash... Please ignore Doctor Pepper, I have never really advocated nerfing Ninja (outside PvP), simply that Ninja should come third out of the three, which is something he himself expects when Dragoon gets buffed.

What I've been saying is simple; Ninja has a single potency nerf if mistakes are made, every 60 seconds. Dragoon, and more so Monk, can have the same issue constantly. Monk specifically can lose Greased Lightning to mechanics, while Ninja just keeps Venom and Huton up almost without effort (or without as far as Venoms go). Because of this, Ninja should come third, not second.

Why the hell people think I want positional requirements on Ninja I'll never know...

[DoctorPepper]

Why the hell people think I want positional requirements on Ninja I'll never know...

The reason people are coming to this conclusion is because you keep saying ninja is easier due to lack of positional requirements.

I'll admit it was an assumption on my part but you need to understand that people simply don't want to see jobs nerfed, period, and there have been threads and people calling for nerfs under the sole idea that positional requirements are hard which they are not.

The majority of the fights, with some exceptions like titan ex, will not have the boss turning around consistently and even those fights that do are typically predictable patterns that can be avoided fairly easily by simply learning the fight. I agree that positional requirements can be annoying as fuck, especially if you don't know a fight very well, but people are in here defending ninja because crybabies have been calling for a ninja nerf even after a dragoon buff has already been confirmed by the devs so what do you expect?

To everybody in this thread defending ninja, you come across as somebody who wants to see nerfs because you are making arguments about how easy the job is due to lack of positional requirements, it's as simple as that.