When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[NyarukoW]

It is OK to give advice. It is NOT OK to insult people.
It is OK to be elite. It is NOT OK to be elitist.
It is OK to be a raider. It is NOT OK to sell clears.
It is OK to speed run when everyone agrees. It is NOT OK to be a speed runner and force it all the time.
It is OK to wipe more than 50 times or more. It is NOT OK to be troll wipe people on purpose. (One purpose could be to make them buy clears)
It is OK to be limited in the ability/time to help. It is NOT OK make it difficult for other players by dragging them down, verbal abuse, or calling them names.
It is OK to vent your frustrations on the forum. It is NOT OK to tell other players to quit their whining or shut up.

[Prototype909]

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy runs, nor is anyone going to be able to force someone to do something for free when they could get paid to do it.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free? They put in the time to achieve something so they get to charge for their services when dealing with people who did not put in any time, it's no different.

[odintius]

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy runs, nor is anyone going to be able to force someone to do something for free when they could get paid to do it.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free? They put in the time to achieve something so they get to charge for their services when dealing with people who did not put in any time, it's no different.

Unless their RMT's doing this as well it a great way to get fast gil they be stupid not to attempt this player A buys gil just to give it back to seller= profit just a thought.

[NyarukoW]

Unless their RMT's doing this as well it a great way to get fast gil they be stupid not to attempt this player A buys gil just to give it back to seller= profit just a thought.

The RMT and clear sellers are probably in cahoots, but of course if they are smart they will have some sort of gil laundering scheme so they do NOT get their important accounts banned, and it makes it all the harder to any of us to really make the proof stick. But if SE datamines their data they just might find them, and the clear sellers may even be blind to the RMT, but the RMT can easily make use of the clear sellers for their own benefit without them being any wiser.

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. ....

There are many things that can be sold in game and in real life. Just because people are willing to pay, does NOT make it acceptable. Only those who are ethically challenged thinks it is OK without consider the subject matter. Clears should be obtained fair and square by persistence, patience, and learning by the player for themselves.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free?

Actually there are many crafters that will help with melds and crafts for free. But they usually don't give way materials or items, yet I've even seen that happen. Nonetheless, crafted goods and gathered mats are sanctioned trade by SE, and market board was created to facilitate that. And the price for those items are not determined by the time put in to level, craft, gather etc. It is purely determined by the market conditions. And you can buy all the vanity you want, but you still won't get the Allagan, High Allagan, or Dreadwrym gear. Those are not meant to be obtainable by gil.

[polyhedral]

RMT did sell runs in FFXI. RMT sold everything, and to emulate them, is to be enable bad ethics in the community.

[Ghishlain]

But really now, when you can "abandon" an event or say it's OK to say, "It's Not OK?"

To get back to this particular question of the OP, in my opinion you need to consider the scope of the content you're in and judge / respond appropriately.

Duty Roulette / Duty Finder
Expect a wide range of skill levels here. Some players may be new, others will be veterans. Mistakes can and will happen, but take everything with a grain of salt. Generally you shouldn't ever need to abandon aside from the direst of newbie mistakes or idiotic of trolls. In general, you should be able to blaze the content without too much hassle and shouldn't need to abandon.

Extreme Primals
Much more unforgiving than Duty Finder dungeons, and you generally should be aware of how the fights mechanically work. These aren't as tuned as Coil and generally more forgiving. One person dying here or there generally shouldn't hamper your overall performance and there are safe spots where a player can be raise'd effectively. You should only really abandon, though, if there is no progress being made for the fight itself. Constantly unable to beat Heart phase on Titan EX? Probably a good time to stop. Overall party fatigue causing wipes earlier and earlier in the fight for Levithan or Mog? Yeah, also a good time to stop.

Coil
Expect the long haul, this is the pinnacle of raiding and expect for long hardships and commitment if you want to succeed. People NEED to be able to carry their weight in this content. All it takes is one of the simple mistakes and *BOOM* there goes your entire party. When do you abandon? Either when no progress is being made at all or if there's clearly someone who cannot handle the pressure that is Coil. If you're doing Coil, you're doing it with the intent to win the fight. If you cannot because one particular person cannot clear one mechanical hurdle despite advice? I'm sorry, that person is the weakest link, and should be replaced. If it's an overall party thing that's causing mistake after mistake? Time to call it a night and try again later.

---

I think the deeper and more important aspect to consider of this is the tone that a player uses when they approach a lackluster player. Regardless of how you feel, you both end up losing if you end losing your cool telling another player that they need to improve on their skills. Part of the animosity between elite and new players is because both sides of the coin have loud and belligerent fools that cause so much tension in the air that you could snap it with a butter knife. You can agree to disagree, but when the vast majority of responses and replies end up being snap replies clouded by powerful and angry emotions, tempers run high and words get spewed that shouldn't be spewed.

For myself in particular, the most important aspect of a discussion is to maintain the morale high ground and remain calm and level headed. If the other side of the coin does not want to listen? Oh well, you made the effort. If you're response to someone is belligerent and rude, of course you're going to get a similar response back and this exacerbates the situation further until someone snaps. Once again, at that juncture in the game, no one wins and everyone leaves angry and unhappy.

My boss at work has a saying - always look at the situation, not the person. Easier said than done, but if you can handle that, then you can objectively determine what the best course of action is and then be able to tell the group / players "No, it's not okay anymore. I'm sorry and goodbye".

[Ellatrix]

padded room bubble ramblings

Gil is a mean to exchange goods and services in a mutually agreeable way.

You're basically saying anything at all that is exchanging a service for money is ethically wrong. Hi, please go outside and step into the place where the sun shines and then step inside a business.

Or better yet, go into your inn room in game and demand the aesthetician changes your hair for free. After all, that's paying gil for a service!

[NyarukoW]

..
You're basically saying anything at all that is exchanging a service for money is ethically wrong. ...

Way to go at making up completely nonsensical interpretations. See:

..
There are many things that can be sold in game and in real life. Just because people are willing to pay, does NOT make it acceptable....

Just because people are willing to pay does not make it ethical or unethical. You are ethically challenged, so you think anything and everything should be bought and sold with money. But civilized society has laws and regulation, just like games have rules, both clearly stated and unstated societal norms socially enforced, because having everyone freedoms protected by having order and stability is better than anarchy and chaos. It is only reasonable that civilized society should have rules that sort out contentions between conflicting interests, and not all trade and exchanges are acceptable if it is harmful to the society, in this case the game community.

BTW you've shown that you like to take nonsense extreme positions. Example:

...If DPS has to hold back, tank is bad...

It is a team game, people need to play together and adjust and adapt. Similarily, not everything should be up for trade and exchange. SE has actually has built that into the game and is basically forgotten and take for granted, considering how much gear is actually untradeable.

[Ophie-Mio]

The RMT and clear sellers are probably in cahoots, but of course if they are smart they will have some sort of gil laundering scheme so they do NOT get their important accounts banned, and it makes it all the harder to any of us to really make the proof stick. But if SE datamines their data they just might find them, and the clear sellers may even be blind to the RMT, but the RMT can easily make use of the clear sellers for their own benefit without them being any wiser.

...I...am just baffled at the amount of conspiracy theory here. Just baffled. It would be hilarious if I knew you were joking.

RMT and clear sellers are not in cahoots. RMT usually are individuals or actual businesses that do the same thing. They pump the game of gil. Clear sellers are raid groups that want to make gil.

Hell, my group last night just sold a run to someone needing Twintania. We saw them complaining about it and offered it and he took it. All for the wonderful price of 5 gil. (We were bored). We are not RMT and we are not in cahoots with them. You're just talking cray.

There are many things that can be sold in game and in real life. Just because people are willing to pay, does NOT make it acceptable. Only those who are ethically challenged thinks it is OK without consider the subject matter. Clears should be obtained fair and square by persistence, patience, and learning by the player for themselves.

Don't tell people how to enjoy their game time. I don't buy clears but if someone wants to do it then they can. Whatever they want to do is their right when they pay a monthly fee. I'm sorry but get off the high horse that you seem to love in these forums.

[NyarukoW]

...I...am just baffled at the amount of conspiracy theory here. ..

There is no conspiracy theory required. Fact is both clear sellers and RMT sellers are spamming you more than often enough to fill up your blacklist. You would have to be deliberately blind to not see how gil can be converted to real money and how that can be major motivating factor. There is old chinese saying, "all kinds of business exist, including those that may cause heads to roll, but there will never be one that loses money for very long"

.Don't tell people how to enjoy their game time. ... I'm sorry but get off the high horse that you seem to love in these forums.

Buy clears is not enjoying the game, it is bypassing it. Enjoying the game means enjoying wiping with friends, learning to solve the puzzle together, building friendships, etc. etc. And that high horse? I do NOT what you are talking about. I don't ride horses, and we have the right to protest clear sellers for their unethical and unhelpful behavior. If they got the time to sit on the PF and sell clears, they got time to go help a learning party.