When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[Buff_Archer]

They should release new level 50 Guildhests which are designed explicitly to teach mechanisms from EX Primals/Coil. I think that was the main point of Guildhests throughout the game, teaching key mechanics such as dealing with adds, prioritizing different targets, etc. Perhaps the update following a release would be an ideal time to release this, so it doesn't change anything for the first wave of Raiders who go in and work out strategies on their own. So when Coil 2 came out, something that had a fight with a mechanic like Divebombs or Twistsrs from T5 could have been released, to give people a way to learn without all the learning group drama and issues like above.

And SE would need to INCENTIVIZE running these for players who knew the content, perhaps with a daily roulette that awarded tomes and a possible minion or mount drop... NOT GC Seals or crafting mats. Adding an increased chance of mounts dropping to EX Primals is all well and good, but all it does is give experienced players a reason to repeat the content with each other.

[HakuroDK]

And SE would need to INCENTIVIZE running these for players who knew the content, perhaps with a daily roulette that awarded tomes and a possible minion or mount drop... NOT GC Seals or crafting mats. Adding an increased chance of mounts dropping to EX Primals is all well and good, but all it does is give experienced players a reason to repeat the content with each other.

There is already a system in place where running content with someone who has not yet cleared the content gets a bonus of tomestones. For T5, that's 100 Soldiery (formerly 100 Myth).

Honestly? That should be incentive enough. Though for even more incentive in a way that makes sense, I think that bonus should have a multiplier on it for each new player in a run. Two new players? 200 Soldiery bonus. Three new players? 300. Four new players? 400. That should grant incentive to experienced players trying to get Soldiery Tomes for things like mats or books.

Obviously the only time this should not happen is in brand new, fresh-to-the-latest-patch content. But for any other content? That'd be amazing for all parties involved.

Also, I'm a little more mellow than I was earlier in this thread. Someone reached out to me in-game from this very topic and actually renewed my faith quite a bit that T5 actually can be done without Blue Garter-level mastery and teamwork.

[AutumnsHollow]

If you want to find like minded members who are at the same skill level as you why not make a party finder and be specific about what your expectations are?

For example; LF more for first time turn five clear, please know up to twisters. Short, simple, and to the point. You'll have the potential to get people who already beat it, but want to help, and like minded individuals who also are where you at skill level wise, and need their clear too.

I personally think your views are jaded from your experiences. I've pugged turn 1 - 8, and there were plenty of parties with jerks, but there was also many nice people, and really fun parties. It's doable without a static, raiding FC, or voice chat.

It sucks encountering jerks, but honestly don't let it get to you too much. If it gets to the point where you don't want to attempt harderer content out of fear for getting yelled at you need thicker skin.

You shouldn't project your experiences, and frustrations onto others though. Not everyone who's at end game is the way you describe, and if I met you in game and I wanted to help you, and you projected that onto me, I wouldn't bother wasting my time to help you. I'm not gonna help some random person who's a dick to me for no reason, I'm no Mother Teresa.

[Kazumac]

My way of handling others (be it duty finder, PF or FC/LS members) is to ask if they need a rundown before the content. If w wipe due to a mistake try to help them by identifying the mistake. Example tam Tara HM if too many adds are making it to the center suggest to the SMN or SCH to use energy drain for a bit more burst and save aetherflow stacks for that phase. Depending on the response I get, determines how I will proceed. I make an effort to never put in any qualifiers such as bad, terrible, etc. just directly call out an action or actions that need to be taken.

Responses are usually positive if I approach that way. If I feel frustration mounting to the point where I can't help without being "mean" that's my cue to excuse myself from the run (this is harder with FC/LS members).

[Lux_Rayna]

Duty finder you are allowed to "wing it". That is what duty finder is for. Its to link up with groups quickly and easily so you can do content. Last I checked, there is no prereq in duty finder that says "must know the fight". Part of the fun in trying something for the first time is learning it on the fly. Besides any group that isnt full of brain-dead flesh bags will summarize the mechanics to all newcomers. This is how we used to accomplish things before youtube.

If you're entering an organized group, its a given you must meet their expectations. But duty finder is duty finder, and I find that no such requirement should exist.

[Prototype909]

The problem is that in high end encounters 7/8 players might literally be unable to carry an 8th player. There are some fights as it stands now that it doesn't matter if seven people know the fight and are well geared, one person's mistake will cause a wipe of the whole group or will eventually lead to the inability to a wipe for everyone involved.

Fights in this game are like eight single player fights going on at once. You generally just have to worry about your own role and hope even one of the other 7 people doesn't mess up, thus killing everyone else. This is why even having one person that doesn't know what they're doing is such a detriment. Try doing T9 with someone who doesn't understand thunder or divebombs, even if the other 7 people understand the mechanic they're still going to die. Or T5 before echo with divebombs + twisters. Of course this behavior extends past Coil, but it's the same fundamental concept (Even in dungeons where it's without reason). Why take a chance on someone who doesn't understand the fight from the start when the game is predicated on everyone having to know exactly what the "dance" so to speak is? It's just going to be a long and painful process for the seven people who understand the fight to explain everything that for all intents and purposes you should already know before you go in, just so that you can potentially still fail at it and waste everyone's time.

People go into instances expecting one shots and max gear because that's just the expectation the playerbase has at this point. Nobody wants to baby newer players (Even if you're only a day late to content). Is this unfair? Absolutely. There's nothing that can really be done about it though unless SE finds some way to add incentive to having more patience (Which the first time bonus is already meant to do).

[NyarukoW]

It is OK to give advice. It is NOT OK to insult people.
It is OK to be elite. It is NOT OK to be elitist.
It is OK to be a raider. It is NOT OK to sell clears.
It is OK to speed run when everyone agrees. It is NOT OK to be a speed runner and force it all the time.
It is OK to wipe more than 50 times or more. It is NOT OK to be troll wipe people on purpose. (One purpose could be to make them buy clears)
It is OK to be limited in the ability/time to help. It is NOT OK make it difficult for other players by dragging them down, verbal abuse, or calling them names.
It is OK to vent your frustrations on the forum. It is NOT OK to tell other players to quit their whining or shut up.

[Prototype909]

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy runs, nor is anyone going to be able to force someone to do something for free when they could get paid to do it.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free? They put in the time to achieve something so they get to charge for their services when dealing with people who did not put in any time, it's no different.

[odintius]

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy runs, nor is anyone going to be able to force someone to do something for free when they could get paid to do it.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free? They put in the time to achieve something so they get to charge for their services when dealing with people who did not put in any time, it's no different.

Unless their RMT's doing this as well it a great way to get fast gil they be stupid not to attempt this player A buys gil just to give it back to seller= profit just a thought.

[NyarukoW]

Unless their RMT's doing this as well it a great way to get fast gil they be stupid not to attempt this player A buys gil just to give it back to seller= profit just a thought.

The RMT and clear sellers are probably in cahoots, but of course if they are smart they will have some sort of gil laundering scheme so they do NOT get their important accounts banned, and it makes it all the harder to any of us to really make the proof stick. But if SE datamines their data they just might find them, and the clear sellers may even be blind to the RMT, but the RMT can easily make use of the clear sellers for their own benefit without them being any wiser.

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. ....

There are many things that can be sold in game and in real life. Just because people are willing to pay, does NOT make it acceptable. Only those who are ethically challenged thinks it is OK without consider the subject matter. Clears should be obtained fair and square by persistence, patience, and learning by the player for themselves.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free?

Actually there are many crafters that will help with melds and crafts for free. But they usually don't give way materials or items, yet I've even seen that happen. Nonetheless, crafted goods and gathered mats are sanctioned trade by SE, and market board was created to facilitate that. And the price for those items are not determined by the time put in to level, craft, gather etc. It is purely determined by the market conditions. And you can buy all the vanity you want, but you still won't get the Allagan, High Allagan, or Dreadwrym gear. Those are not meant to be obtainable by gil.