What's with the Early Pull Brigade?

[JustPlainLucas]

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But SE meant hunts to be for small groups, not entire servers... they said it themselves. There is no need to justify or rationalize "bad behavior" as pulling a mob and not sharing. That's a HUNT, pure and simply. Hunts don't work like that in real life. If you're a deer hunter and you see a buck, you sure aren't going to call out to every deer hunter in the forest going "Look at what I got! Come join in!" Here's the deal. The people EXPECTING to get in on a hunt that someone else found, or EXPECTING someone to reset just because their group didn't get there are more wrong than the group that actually found the mark first. And resetting a mob which could screw up someone's credit? That's more a more discourteous action towards the teams working on it than it is courteous to those who are still arriving. I had it happen to me back when Bs were still worth 5 seals. I FOUND the bloody thing, called it out, was the first to hit it, then groups who wanted in had someone reset it, and by the time it was all said and done, I got 1 seal. So actually, having people demand that you wait and demand that you reset is NOT sensible behavior; it's selfish.

[NyarukoW]

... Hunts don't work like that in real life. If you're a deer hunter and you see a buck, you sure aren't going to call out to every deer hunter in the forest going "Look at what I got! Come join in!" Here's the deal.

Actually people hunted in groups and called out to other people, just like African bushmen hunters you see hunting with a bow and arrow. But no matter, your analogy is nonsensical. First there is is no deer in game that is a elite mark, and an elite mark pays out to everybody and is not a zero-sum game like a real life deer. So people behaving badly and justifying their bad behavior is exactly what is going on here in this thread. They play the victim when other people tell them to behave better. Sure people using the foul language to chastise others deserve to reported for bad language, but people griefing the group hunts also deserve to be reported for griefing and be blacklisted and/or removed from the hunt LS. Actions have consequences. Making up stories and complaining about won't change that simple truth.

[Trell]

Actions have consequences. Making up stories and complaining about won't change that simple truth.

That is, how do you say, correctomundo. You would think people would learn that by age 7.

[Ghishlain]

... but people griefing the group hunts also deserve to be reported for griefing and be blacklisted and/or removed from the hunt LS. Actions have consequences. Making up stories and complaining about won't change that simple truth.

As much as I personally agree that this such actions can be perceived as griefing, you do realize there is no such thing as "an early pull" in this game, yes? It's not against the ToS to do so. Though, as our friendly neighborhood LGM has stated, the social connotations of "early pulling" can have a negative impact on their game play experience (which is another debate entirely).

In reality, the people being frozen/stoned etc. will have a better chance to get full credit because after the reset those debuffs would have had the time to wear off and they can just easily pew-pew some more and get their full credit. And that is what people do and there is no issue.The only person that has problem with that is the solo early pulling troll, who would never get full credit anyways but now has their plan to be a jerk to everyone else foiled and is really unhappy about it and resorts to complaining on the forums and making up stories.

Not always: For example, group of 2 tanks and 6 WHMs go into a S-Rank hunt. WHMs burn through all their MP using Cure III, Medica, and Medica II. Mobs get reset and all WHMS are near depleted in MP with no real way to recover that MP. How do you propose they get their contribution points now? No matter how you look at it, a reset can and most likely will harm several people despite the intentions of the reset itself.

[NyarukoW]

...
Not always: For example, group of 2 tanks and 6 WHMs go into a S-Rank hunt. WHMs burn through all their MP using Cure III, Medica, and Medica II. Mobs get reset and all WHMS are near depleted in MP with no real way to recover that MP. How do you propose they get their contribution points now? ....

When you are frozen/stoned your MP recovers. I have an alt that is a WHM. And you don't need to go all out on spamming to get full credit on a S-rank. Just 3 AOE cures of any flavor will do. There is never a case where you are low on MP while on hunts. This isn't T2 where you have to spam those heals with the enrage method for 5 minutes. All these are hypotheticals. They can happen, but the odds of them happening is like less than 0.1%. I've seen many resets, not once have I seen people complaining about not getting credit. The resets have always been welcome by many, and you can see all the shouts of thanks. And it gives the early puller cover too, people forget about what they did, or more willing to let it slide.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

When you are frozen/stoned your MP recovers. I have an alt that is a WHM. And you don't need to go all out on spamming to get full credit on a S-rank. Just 3 AOE cures of any flavor will do. There is never a case where you are low on MP while on hunts. This isn't T2 where you have to spam those heals with the enrage method for 5 minutes. All these are hypotheticals. They can happen, but the odds of them happening is like less than 0.1% of the time. I've seen many resets, not once have I seen people complaining about not getting credit. The resets have always been welcome by many, and you can see all the shouts of thanks. And it give the early puller cover too, people forget about what they did.

So I guess the lead GM weighing in and saying "this is detrimental to players and is reportable and potentially actionable" means nothing to you? The testimonials of myself and numerous others in the thread in question mean nothing to you?

[NyarukoW]

So I guess the lead GM weighing in and saying "this is detrimental to players and is reportable and potentially actionable" means nothing to you? The testimonials of myself and numerous others in the thread in question mean nothing to you?

You obviously don't understand the meaning of detrimental. When trolls are messing up hunts and being detrimental to everyone else, resets are the solution. The troll can go ahead and attempt to abuse the report system, but I'm sure the GM will dismiss their bogus claims.

And people working together trying to help everyone get full credit will not be bullied by your false claims and misleading interpretations of the TOS or GM statement.

[Brine_Gildchaff]

You obviously don't understand the meaning of detrimental. When trolls are messing up hunts and being detrimental to everyone else, resets are the solution. The troll can go ahead and attempt to abuse the report system, but I'm sure the GM will dismiss their bogus claims.

Really? Because Enkatreia, the LEAD GM, posted several times in an enormous thread regarding resets and "early pulls" and explicitly said that resetting, regardless of intent, can be detrimental to the players who were already on-site. He said explicitly that people can report and that resetting, regardless of stated intent, could be considered a form of harassment and treated accordingly.

And people working together trying to help everyone get full credit will not be bullied by your false claims and misleading interpretations of the TOS or GM statement.

Also stop calling me a liar unless you've got some actual evidence that what I've said is not true. Go search up the posts, it's not like they'd be hard to find. And I rather highly doubt you have some privileged knowledge that my Maahes story didn't actually happen (particularly since it DID).

[MomomiMomi]

When you are frozen/stoned your MP recovers. I have an alt that is a WHM. And you don't need to go all out on spamming to get full credit on a S-rank. Just 3 AOE cures of any flavor will do. There is never a case where you are low on MP while on hunts. This isn't T2 where you have to spam those heals with the enrage method for 5 minutes. All these are hypotheticals. They can happen, but the odds of them happening is like less than 0.1%.

The Hunt on your server must consist of 10 people. A ranks die in all of 10-20 seconds on more populated servers. Death/debuffs last longer than that. You also have to consider that as more people arrive, marks start to disappear, which makes it harder to hit the target to get any credit at all.

Back when people used to reset, I lost credit completely almost every time that someone did so.

[Ghishlain]

All these are hypotheticals. They can happen, but the odds of them happening is like less than 0.1%

I think there's enough testimonial in the posts before to state that resets have been incredibly useful to many people but at the same time have detrimentally hampered someone else's game play. Stating otherwise is ignoring the giant elephant in the room.

When you are frozen/stoned your MP recovers.

I wasn't talking about any scenario where your healer gets disabled, I'm talking about a scenario where your healer runs out of MP building their contribution and cannot get MP back in any reasonable fashion, thus neutering them of their Seals if someone resets the mob. Big difference. On that note:

And you don't need to go all out on spamming to get full credit on a S-rank. Just 3 AOE cures of any flavor will do. There is never a case where you are low on MP while on hunts.

I've hunted an S-rank where I've bled my entire MP dry in Medica's, Cure III's, and Medica II's just when I need to refresh the HoT on my group. I still only managed to get 30 seals that hunt. I guess this is my anecdotal evidence versus yours. Let's call it a draw on this one.

I've seen many resets, not once have I seen people complaining about not getting credit.

Once again, refer to examples from other posters before. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen either.

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In passing, hunts are really badly designed, and bring out the worst in all sides of these arguments and debates, sadly.