SMN BIS 2.3

[sasdas]

Judgment ring of casting should be better than High Allagan Ring, Has 17 crit and 9 det
http://xivdb.com/?item/8354/Judgment-Ring-of-Casting
As long as you meet the acc req in coil.

[pacifist0rz]

Note that for this post I will be using the coefficients from http://ffxiv.ariyala.com (even though my testing has shown that crit should be weighted higher than this)
WP = 6.57
Int = 1
Crit = 0.211
Det = 0.283
SS = 0.094

Judgment ring of casting should be better than High Allagan Ring, Has 17 crit and 9 det
http://xivdb.com/?item/8354/Judgment-Ring-of-Casting
As long as you meet the acc req in coil.

This statement is totally correct.

2 int + 13 spell SS from HA = 3.2
17 crit + 9 det from Judgement ring = 6.1 (+2.9)

However now we need to focus on that last sentence "As long as you meet the acc req in coil." Any BIS build will be hovering right around the Acc cap, so we still need to figure out a way to make up the lost Acc from the HA ring.
Lets look at some possibilities...

Earrings (swap HA with Sold):
HA = 19 crit + 9 det = 6.6
Sold = 13 det = 3.7 (-2.9)

Boots (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 25 crit + 18 SS = 7.0
HA = 18 crit = 3.8 (-3.2)

Wrist (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 13 crit + 13 det = 6.4
HA = 13 crit = 2.7 (-3.7)

As you can see, any swap that you make will cancel out the gains from the judgement ring, with the boots or wrist swap actual being worse. Also not for someone like me who values crit more than http://ffxiv.ariyala.com, even the earring swap is worse.

[Havenchild]

Note that for this post I will be using the coefficients from http://ffxiv.ariyala.com (even though my testing has shown that crit should be weighted higher than this)
WP = 6.57
Int = 1
Crit =0.211
Det = 0.283
SS = 0.094



This statement is totally correct.

2 int + 13 spell SS from HA = 3.2
17 crit + 9 det from Judgement ring = 6.1 (+2.9)

However now we need to focus on that last sentence "As long as you meet the acc req in coil." Any BIS build will be hovering right around the Acc cap, so we still need to figure out a way to make up the lost Acc from the HA ring.
Lets look at some possibilities...

Earrings (swap HA with Sold):
HA = 19 crit + 9 det = 6.6
Sold = 13 det = 3.7 (-2.9)

Boots (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 25 crit + 18 SS = 7.0
HA = 18 crit = 3.8 (-3.2)
Wris (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 13 crit + 13 det = 6.4
HA = 13 crit = 2.7 (-3.7)

As you can see, any swap that you make will cancel out the gains from the judgement ring, with the boots or wrist swap actual being worse. Also not for someone like me who values crit more than http://ffxiv.ariyala.com, even the earring swap is worse.

The thing about these stat weighs especially when spell speed comes into focus, is spell speed is largely useless on the class overall and more so atm due to the current bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions.

Every time you cast Ruin 2 (which you should be for maximum DPS rotations prior to using Fester) and Bio (Refreshing a main DoT), Spell speed becomes more and more useless overall.

This makes swapping in some parts on the left side more beneficial for the sake of higher ACC. While the earrings are better on a direct comparison, comparing weighted gains from both, there is virtually no build you can make with those earrings that can't be outdone by another using the evenstar earrings when aiming to satisfy the current Coil Cap.

[Uninstall]

What does Ruin2 have anything to do with how spell speed is weighted? If anything, Ruin and Ruin2 are the primary reasons to translate the extra spell speed into damage. More SS=more Ruin/Ruin2 you can cast between having to recast DoTs. I also do not understand your argument with Bio.

[Havenchild]

What does Ruin2 have anything to do with how spell speed is weighted? If anything, Ruin and Ruin2 are the primary reasons to translate the extra spell speed into damage. More SS=more Ruin/Ruin2 you can cast between having to recast DoTs. I also do not understand your argument with Bio.

On average assuming your playing optimally, you will always be able to cast 3-4 Ruin I per 10 seconds (Fester CD). You never will optimally be able to bend that to get even one more cast off for sure, and not hurt yourself elsewhere immensely.

Spell Speeds strongest strength is your ability to stand still and just cast non-stop without interruption, due to the fact that stacking spell speed allows you to break into previous casts earlier before actual completion of the skill. Since Bio and Ruin 2 are both instant skills, these don't break into a previous recast of something such as if you were to cast Bio with generally any skill with a cast time.

Playing optimally, you should be Ruin 2-ing before your Fester CD comes up and should be weaving in your Pet CDs between your Instant skills. Assuming your doing both, you will often find it hard to just constantly be spamming Ruin in between DoTs and actually performing optimally.

1) What bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions?

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

1) Previously the cast time of your pets skills was reduced when enhanced pet actions proc'd. On top of that many would say that the stats of your pet are that of when you first summon them, yet SS is not factored into this at all.

I also answered your second question prior to seeing your post.

Your statement is a massive exaggeration; no one anywhere is arguing that 2 int is better than 40 DET. 1 int is worth 3.5 det based on the http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients. I am probably as anti-det as anyone comes, and my personal testing has shown it to be more like 1 int is worth ~6 det.

No one is indeed arguing directly of this comparison. However, you are indirectly arguing it by not pursuing builds with 2 less INT and the weight of DET you can gain from these builds.

I also didn't mention it before but I also do feel Crit should be slightly higher then .211. I personally feel it's closer to .250ish. Certainly closer to the DET weight for sure.

[YanderePrincess]

The thing about these stat weighs especially when spell speed comes into focus, is spell speed is largely useless on the class overall and more so atm due to the current bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions.

Every time you cast Ruin 2 (which you should be for maximum DPS rotations prior to using Fester) and Bio (Refreshing a main DoT), Spell speed becomes more and more useless overall.

1) What bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions?

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

[Dwill]

1) What bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions?

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

1) There is no Spell Speed bug. It was confirmed by the Square Enix that Spell Speed does not affect pet and that they don't have any plans to change that.
2) You would be correct on the whole thing here.

Didn't 2.3 add i90 crafted accessories, which when pentamelded can potentially be better than the i110 stuff? I know this is something that changed on the BiS list for BLM, so might change smn, too.

Since BLM benefits really well from all 3 stats, the Intelligence lost can be compensated but for Summoners whose benefits from Spell Speed is relatively low, the gain we get from Pentamelding doesn't compensate the Intelligence lost.

[Havenchild]

1) There is no Spell Speed bug. It was confirmed by the Square Enix that Spell Speed does not affect pet and that they don't have any plans to change that.

Looking further into this as of current, this was replaced with the current system. Previously, SS was factoring into pet skills and was detailed on the cooldowns the same. Whether is was fundamentally wrong initially or simply changed later, it is claimed to be working as intended now, despite still being an active bug being looked into according to the forums. ( but let's just call that laziness)

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class and even attempting to do so if you geared purely for SS, would only hurt you overall anyway. If you cannot fit in a full extra cast per 10 (Fester CD) seconds, your benefiting nothing from SS. Go as low as 350 SS or as high as 450, on average you will do less damage overall in builds supplying high amounts of SS, and still will not get an additional cast in per 10 seconds. If you want to take full advantage of what your saying you literally would do Bio2 ->Miasma -> Bio -> Ruin Spam till you have to recast your DoTs again.

If that's your rotation and your not weaving in Rouse, Spur, Enkindle, Ruin2 + Fester, you are already not in an optimal skill rotation. Weaving in these skills, will largely not even touch the GCD when done correctly (have you waiting for the GCD to come up). SS is near useless not because it's not working as intended, but because the way you should be playing the class doesn't benefit from it.

[Dwill]

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class and even attempting to do so if you geared purely for SS, would only hurt you overall anyway. If you cannot fit in a full extra cast per 10 seconds, your benefiting nothing from SS. Go as low as 350 SS or as high as 450, on average you will do less damage overall in builds supplying high amounts of SS, and still will not get an additional cast in per 10 seconds. If you want to take full advantage of what your saying you literally would do Bio2 ->Miasma -> Bio -> Ruin Spam till you have to recast your DoTs again.

If that's your rotation and your not weaving in Rouse, Spur, Enkindle, Ruin2 + Fester, you are already not in an optimal skill rotation. Weaving in these skills, will largely not even touch the GCD when done correctly (have you waiting for the GCD to come up). SS is near useless not because it's not working as intended, but because the way you should be playing the class doesn't benefit from it.

Nobody's going to argue that stacking Spell Speed on Summoner is a terrible idea. But the stat itself isn't as useless as you make it out to be. Saying that amount of spells you can fit in 10 seconds is all good but you're not factoring in the fact that Spell Speed helps you reapply your DoTs faster after being affected by certain mechanics (Gaols in Titan Extreme or Scyla's Frozen Orb for examples) as well as helping you get off certain casts before you have to move, whether it's to avoid an AoE or while kiting.

[YanderePrincess]

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class

Oh, I understand that completely. There is too much of SMN's damage that is almost entirely unaffected by SS (there's a very -very- tiny effect on DoT spells, but it's just a matter of being able to get your initial application of DoTs onto the target a fraction of a second faster and is thus negligible at best, and depending on how exactly DoT application works, completely irrelevant at worst).

My point was simply the fact that Ruin II and Bio being instant-cast has no bearing on the weight of spell speed, because what matters from SS is primarily the lower GCD, not the lower casting time. If what you had said about Ruin II and Bio were true, then Firestarter procs and Thundercloud procs on BLM would also significantly diminish the benefit of SS, but they don't.