SMN BIS 2.3

[Uninstall]

It is. I've long stated there are no full int builds that are best in slot. People on these forums claim they know but do not truly understand Determination for the summoner class. Many would be fast to show you builds that would trade 30+ det for 2 int and 5 crit or other ridiculous setups.

the only time full int isn't best in slot is if you either use crafted gear or there is no accuracy cap (or a very low one like t5).

[Havenchild]

the only time full int isn't best in slot is if you either use crafted gear or there is no accuracy cap (or a very low one like t5).

This mentality is what has lead many astray and overall contribute to lower DPS for pretty much all classes. Determination is largely underestimated on these forums for those who claim to be experts and this is across the board on all the classes. This also leads people to questioning attainable numbers that people have did on several instances of coil on various classes and calling it "impossible" or "inflated", largely because people think that by pressing the BIS Solver on Ariyala.com, they are getting the optimal build for maximum DPS on there classes and simply cant fathom that others with slightly less STR or INT are pulling bigger numbers when they substitute for Determination.


For Summoner specifically, Det is an equally important stat as Crit but not less so. Stacking boundless amounts of Crit just because you can doesn't give you the best build. Thinking 2 Int is worth more then 40+ DET is horrendous.

Your assessment is incorrect.

I'm gonna assume were playing the same game. I've personally tried both books on T6, T8 and striking dummies. The Book of Spades for me, seems to tick higher for each DoT on average then the HA Book. I can only contribute this to the amount of DET in between the books despite that one clearly has more *Magic Attack* and Intelligence. If two magic attack was such a decisive increase then by no means should 31 DET be even ticking on average similar numbers.

Also your builds are uneven, one is using food , one isnt. One is also substituting a large amount of Int for a spike in DET which is also largely uneven in comparison to your other build.

Simply keeping the same build and switch the books, will suffice. The shift should be 3INT + 2 MAttk(High Allagan Book) vs 31 DET (Either Novus or BoS) if your using the same to compare.

[Uninstall]

I don't' have where you are getting those numbers from. No one of any importance has ever claimed that 2 int is better than 40 det.

[Seaku]

For Summoner specifically, Det is an equally important stat as Crit but not less so. Stacking boundless amounts of Crit just because you can doesn't give you the best build. Thinking 2 Int is worth more then 40+ DET is horrendous.

Your numbers seem wildly inflated. Let's take the drop from them evenstar ring to judgment ring. That's 4 crit and 9 det for 2 int. How is that 40+? You are just grabbing those numbers from thin air.
Some of the scylla set have some more det on it but there's no real trade from the i110 gear since you can avoid SS with the i110 left side just fine. Don't get me wrong, I think the Ramuh ring is better than the other options as long as you can make acc cap but the difference is not nearly as large as you are making it out to be.

I'm gonna assume were playing the same game. I've personally tried both books on T6, T8 and striking dummies. The Book of Spades for me, seems to tick higher for each DoT on average then the HA Book. I can only contribute this to the amount of DET in between the books despite that one clearly has more *Magic Attack* and Intelligence. If two magic attack was such a decisive increase then by no means should 31 DET be even ticking on average similar numbers.

So seems to be? You aren't sure? Also let's take for example that the books do give the same or comparable dot numbers. High Allagan is definitely going to have better ruins and festers. So High Allagan is better isn't it?

Also your builds are uneven, one is using food , one isnt. One is also substituting a large amount of Int for a spike in DET which is also largely uneven in comparison to your other build.

Dwill probably just forget to click it before pasting the build over.

Simply keeping the same build and switch the books, will suffice. The shift should be 3INT + 2 MAttk(High Allagan Book) + 32 spell speed + 14 Crit vs 31 DET (Either Novus or BoS) if your using the same to compare.

DET might have a strong weighting to damage and it is certainly better overall than the secondary stats you do gain from the switch; The 3 Int + secondary stats is about on par with the 31 DET you lose. However since it's an even shift of stats then you come out with +2 WD overall, which is better.

On another note alot of people also assume you should be going Crit OR Det, when in actuality your builds for Summoner should be focused on Crit AND Det.

All the builds assume this, they just decide which to focus on more heavily is all.

(Also calling it now, Shiva Ex will drop a Crit/Det book so it's better than HA!)

[Havenchild]

snip

There's a lot of things you brought up so i'm gonna try to answer them individually.

1) Numbers aren't inflated. Users keep posting "BIS" builds with maximum Int, and recommending these to others. Many of these builds shift between each other but most do not seem to care much for DET at all. There are several builds at 2 less INT you can make that can give you 20-40+ DET overall depending on your starting point using a MAX INT build. I say 20-40 DET because people have posted various builds that start higher or lower on DET. But there was even user in this thread that posted a very low DET build for a maximum INT build and calls that BIS.

*Simply switching in, Judgement Ring of Casting is not the only thing you should do. I can also tell you there is no BIS builds that use the High Allagan Earrings of Casting. As good as these earrings seem to be, while attempting to make ACC cap, you will always come out with less preferable stats overall then if you made builds with the evenstar earring.

2) I am sure through in-game testing. Simple wording desparity but any summoner with both the HA Book and Book of Spades can test the same. I never stated the HA Book was not better overall, because it in fact is due to Festers and Ruin Spam, but that doesn't speak the whole truth in relation to DoT damage.

3) Whatever.

4) I agree with this overall assessment. The HA Book beats out the Book of Spades but not by a great amount. You need roughly 45 DET to overcome a 2 WD + 3INT boost. Book of Spades/Novus at 31 DET can't do this, but it also reflects that the DoT equation for determining damage done is different then overall spells. DET has a stronger impression on DoT strength then just INT or WD. If this was not so, DoTs under the Book of Spades would not tick as high or higher then a book of greater strength such as the HA Book.

* Thanks for the correction but I left out the extra Crit and Spell speed the HA book gives, because these two stats are not direct modifiers of damage like INT/DET or WD.

5) Well while some may focus on one over the other, these two stats should not be so dynamically shifted on there respective scales. What I mean by this is simply, your DET should not be near 250 because you want 550+ Crit. Crit largely becomes a mundane stat once you pass about 535 ish. Ive personally tested various builds where my crit fell anywhere from 507-570+. On average, I noticed no overwhelming DPS increase at going from 535 -> 570+ crit. What you would think "higher crit" = "critting more often", I would contest it doesn't seem to work that way in this game. There appears to be "soft caps" for crit and how much effectiveness you can pull from a build focusing on it purely. However I noticed that on the lower End closer to 535ish Crit, when supplementing those extra stat points into say, DET, you edge out much higher. You crit as often, and you do more damage, this purely reflects that SMN is meant to be CRIT/DET hybrids with one stat not overbearing the other.


PS: I kinda doubt it, only because we already have a 110 option of Crit /DET and the cap on DET seems to be 31 at i110.

[Dwill]

Note that for this post I will be using the coefficients from http://ffxiv.ariyala.com (even though my testing has shown that crit should be weighted higher than this)

With the huge primary stats we gain in 2.2, CRT and DET are pretty much of equal value.

I'm gonna assume were playing the same game. I've personally tried both books on T6, T8 and striking dummies. The Book of Spades for me, seems to tick higher for each DoT on average then the HA Book. I can only contribute this to the amount of DET in between the books despite that one clearly has more *Magic Attack* and Intelligence. If two magic attack was such a decisive increase then by no means should 31 DET be even ticking on average similar numbers.

Also your builds are uneven, one is using food , one isnt. One is also substituting a large amount of Int for a spike in DET which is also largely uneven in comparison to your other build.

Simply keeping the same build and switch the books, will suffice. The shift should be 3INT + 2 MAttk(High Allagan Book) vs 31 DET (Either Novus or BoS) if your using the same to compare.

I fixed the mistake with food in the first post and

Your second claim is not true either:

Even value CRT and DET Build 1 using full CRT and DET Novus: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGQV (Even CRT and DET build came out the exact same as DET oriented build in the first post due to how itemization is done).
Even value CRT and DET Build 2 using High Allagan: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGR0

Bio
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 143.3877
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 141.8901

Bio II and Miasma
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (35/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 125.4643
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (35/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 124.1538

Fester
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (300/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 1075.4084
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (300/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 1064.1758

If you factor in the difference in the Spell Speed difference as well, Build 2 will yield about 1.5% more damage than Build 1. That's also excluding the difference in Enhanced Pet actions procs, which in itself is harder to quantify.

You are correct when saying that it is better to keep a balance between both CRT and DET but your theory of DoTs being stronger with a full DET/CRT Novus than High Allagan is still wrong, High Allagan is still better.

* Thanks for the correction but I left out the extra Crit and Spell speed the HA book gives, because these two stats are not direct modifiers of damage like INT/DET or WD.

CRT while not a direct damage stats is still a damage modifying stats which can be calculated to give an average damage value of an ability.

[pacifist0rz]

With the huge primary stats we gain in 2.2, CRT and DET are pretty much of equal value.

Yep that is what I was trying to say with the part of my statement in (). http://ffxiv.ariyala.com has det being weighted higher than crit, but my testing shows that crit is actually slightly beter than det now.

Here's my BiS btw. I made this at the beginning of 2.2 when accuracy caps were discovered and this list I cooked up has a perfect amount of accuracy

I am not sure where your list came from, but the link below is the BIS build using your coefficients (which are the same as http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients)

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGS1

Thinking 2 Int is worth more then 40+ DET is horrendous.

Your statement is a massive exaggeration; no one anywhere is arguing that 2 int is better than 40 DET. 1 int is worth 3.5 det based on the http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients. I am probably as anti-det as anyone comes, and my personal testing has shown it to be more like 1 int is worth ~6 det.